Suncat 17 mast

[derfeznoj]

Is the condition of this mast hinge track an issue (attached photo)?

[Al]

Hi,  Yes, it is an 'issue', which has happened to at least a few of us.  In my case, (Horizon Cat), it happened when I had to let both ends of the main sheet loose when the wind was probably 5-6 knots.   The boom came around hard, and the gooseneck popped out.  It looks like yours isn't that bad, but it'll only get worse if you leave it like that.   The aluminum mast is not a hard alloy, and won't crack.  You might want to file off any 'snags' there. 
  I took a block of hard wood and my ball peen hammer, and knocked things back in line.  Not been a problem since, but know that I know what causes it, I don't do that   ;-)

[derfeznoj]

Thanks for the feedback, very helpful! It's not my boat, I was looking at purchasing it. With this, and the unknown condition of the keel plate, I'm having some qualms at $10k for a 2006.

[bruce]

Yeah, it's a known issue. It usually happens when the boom, sail slugs, and gaff haven't been lowered below the long pin before the mast is folded down. With the mast track spread like that you can expect the slugs, and possibly the spar slides, to fall out of the track while raising and dousing the sail. Not desirable.

I agree with Al, you can cold work the metal to restore the mast track, no heat required. Although, this one looks like it was damaged repeatedly so there may be some hardening. Not a deal breaker by itself, likely abuse by an uninformed owner.

Also check the pin and eye welded to the throat slide where the throat halyard is attached. That can be bent off axis causing binding when the throat is raised. Bad design, there is a fix.

[derfeznoj]

Bruce,

Thanks for the excellent feedback and info.

The other point of concern for me is the keel centerboard plate. This 2006 Suncat is on the 4th owner, with the latest berthing it in a salt water slip for 6+ months per year. It is currently in the water since last summer with the trailer (bunk not rollers) being fixed. I don't have a way to inspect the plate for corrosion at this time.

I'm hoping someone might be able to give me a broad guess whether corrosion and/or leakage in the keel might be an issue given these circumstances. I did a remote video walkthrough, but they were unable to get the camera into the bilge area to see if there is any water.

And, they want $10k for the boat (original sails). Seems overpriced to me given the real and potential issues.

[bruce]

Although it is a project that you could DIY, for negotiation purposes to replace the mast and stub on a Sun Cat could easily be in the $1,200-1,500 range at a yard. Here Com-Pac lists the mast as $799.70. Don't know if that includes the stub, and then there's the labor of pulling the stub, remounting the hinge and hardware, and reinstallation.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xtfxq40jvl9esw9/AADHttjwMACdw5Voo2NYBoLVa?oref=e&preview=SUN+CAT+2023.pdf

FYI, Com-Pac sources the spars and fittings from Dwyer Mast.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11288.msg85117#msg85117

Be nice to inspect the centerboard. Can you careen the boat for inspection at low tide?

At least some Sun Cats have zincs on the centerboard. Prudent if boat is kept in saltwater for months at a time. Tom Ray posts a photo here, and mentions the CB trunk design changed early in the production years, before 2006 I'm pretty sure, to fiberglass. There had been corrosion issues with earlier SS trunks, Com-Pac blamed them on poor owner maintenance of zincs. I believe the current centerboard pivot is glassed in place, not easy to replace but maybe not as prone to leaking. Is there standing water in the keel?
https://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1390218

This link has some photos of a Sun Cat keel.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11462.0

[derfeznoj]

Bruce,

Thanks for the links and advice.

With the remote video session I didn't see any standing water in the cockpit hatches, but they were unable to get a camera back into the bilge area to see if there is standing water there (I previously saw the images you attached, leading to these questions.) When I talked with CP Yachts a couple of days ago they mentioned that long term storage in salt water could lead to failure of the keel plate. However, they also said if the hull was well maintained this might not be an issue. The seller stated that he repainted the bottom several years ago. To inspect the keel bottom plate would require hiring the marina to lift the boat as the trailer has a bunk which obscures view.

I sail on Flathead Lake, in Western Montana, and the weather/wind can be fierce on a moments notice. I currently sail a SJ23, which can handle most of the wind (until it gets to 55kn+, where it sank 6 boats a couple of years ago!)

I need to downsize to a day sailor, for a variety of reasons, and the CP Suncat, with its ballast, looks like something that can handle the fickle wind on the lake.

What are your thoughts on the average price for a 2006 Suncat in average condition (original sails, 6hp Yamaha 2020)?

[bruce]

55 kts., good luck with that! There is some ballast, but only 200 lbs., and that's quite high so the righting moment isn't very strong. The broad hull form of a catboat will make her a bit stiffer, and she's undercanvassed at 150 sq. ft. I see your SJ 23 has a similar centerboard and stub keel design, although with a much higher ballast/displacement ratio.

I'm not current on SC sales, I know used PCs have been selling for a bit more due to the back log at the factory. I have a friend who has a deposit on a 2010 SC priced at $12,500 with a 5hp Honda, not sure of the sails. Based on his searches, he's happy at that price. It's all about condition of course. I haven't heard of that many issues with the centerboard, especially if there are zincs installed and maintained, unless the marina where the boat is berthed is lax in monitoring for stray direct current. Excess stray direct current can consume zincs in a few weeks, and even more noble metals such as SS can suffer severe damage in the short term, certainly in salt water. That I would want to verify hadn't been the case.

I'm sure somebody has jacked a SC high enough off the trailer to drop the centerboard enough for inspecting at least the leading edge, and any zincs installed there. That may not be any more feasible to convince the seller to do than careening the boat, but it should be cheaper than a haul out!

[Jim in TC]

Just to pile on to Bruce's comments: we have sailed in 30MPH+ wind, and at that we needed to reef. With a single reef, the boat behaved very well at 30-35 mph with some higher gusts.

During a poorly executed gibe with an unfortunate and unfavorable gust of big wind at the worst possible moment a buddy and I knocked our SC over far enough to take water over the combing. We also piled up on the low side of the cockpit because of the quick heel. We came back upright with actually only a bit of water coming in and draining out rapidly. Bottom line, the boat is very forgiving.

[derfeznoj]

Thanks all, very good info. I generally sail the SJ23 in 8kn to 12kn with full sails, above 12 I start pulling in the headsail to 110. At 18 it's a handkerchief. That will be the biggest learning curve migrating to a catboat. I'm assuming pointing and tacking will be somewhat different. Only had to reef the main once when it was 25+ gusting to 35. Waves were too much to sail well, so mainly motored out of harms way.

[bruce]

I like to recommend Bill Welch's book, " The Competitive Cat, Racing Small Gaff-Rigged Catboats" to experienced sailors new to catboats. Some on racing, mostly it's about sailing a catboat well.

They point better than you might anticipate. Big sail stepped well forward. Long boom and short mast, the COE is forward and low and when trimmed properly the balance is familiar with a slight weather helm keeping the bow into the wind. The high aspect rudder is a big improvement over the traditional shallow barn door rudder. You're already familiar with a centerboard. Sail trim is important to maximize performance, but it's not that demanding. Full bow, the boat is pushing into waves rather than cutting through them, sea state can be more limiting than the wind. I find a boom vang very useful, for trim but especially to control the boom from bouncing sailing upwind in chop. With the boom held down the boat can stay powered up.

You won't get that rush that you can in a sloop when pointing and the boat catches a puff, heels over, and takes off. But it's fun sail. If you can, try to catch a ride on a catboat, even if it's not a Sun Cat, to see if you like the style before you decide.

[Dave-in-RI]

2 Cents-- due to the one year factory backlog, new Sun Cats are going for-- through actual dealers-- upwards of $40,000 depending on options. Gerry Hutchins told me about this one before it was done (he was trying to help me locate a pre-ordered one from a dealer rather than have me place an order and have to wait), and it came on market at $40k! Thanks but no thanks (not to mention red hulls being the hardest color to keep): https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/88009 GI Sails and Masthead show prices of mid-$20ks, but the latter is dated 2021 and I'm not sure of GI-- with fair market, I'm sure these are going out the door for 30s+. The used market is also really limited, especially further away from the southeast-- and the ownership groups are devoted-- so they carry a premium. I'm seeing $16-18k for 2006-2012 years, seemingly regardless of condition (some are sh*t) between Craigslist, Facebook Marketplace, and the other random sailboat listing places. Also be wary of Hurricane Ian boats, you don't want to get into that... The most important thing about buying any used boat is maintenance history-- gelcoat, was it covered, did they just beach it and scratch the bottom, etc.. Like Warren Buffet says about picking stocks-- there's no outs, you only strike out if you swing at bad pitches. ie, you don't have to buy someone else's neglect

[kickingbug1]

   i have to say that at one time i thought that a suncat would be a good replacement for my cp 16 im glad i didnt get one (pretty pricey anyway). the issues that you talked about should have been resolved at the factory especially at that price point. i have had no issues with my 87 catalina 18 ,however. with appologies to sun cat owners , you deserve better. got to say that 40 grand for a little 17 footer is way out of line

[bruce]

I don't disagree that 40K is a lot for a 17' catboat. I looked at the other roughly comparable catboats in production, the 18' Marshall Sanderling, the 16.6' Arey's Pond Lynx, and the Thom Cat 19', all in cabin versions. The Sanderling is $47,900, the Lynx is $39,500, and the Thom Cat is $36,000, all for a base model without a trailer. The molds for the Thom Cat 17, a better comparison, were destroyed in a fire.

Looking at the Gulf Island Sails website (which I use because they list prices), the base version of a 17' Sun Cat is $21,495.
https://www.gisails.com/boats/compac/suncat/

All boats have issues, including the Sun Cat, but it doesn't make them defective. I recently looked at a 15' Marshall Sandpiper ($25,700) to help a Nordhavan 40 skipper new to sailing who was having problems getting his new boat to work. I found several things that he could try to improve things. Great boat, and none of the issues were unreasonable from a builder's perspective, but things could be better optimized for a new/inexperienced catboat sailor. He'd hired a sailing instructor, unsure of his quals but he couldn't figure out what this guy needed. It shouldn't have been hard even if he hadn't seen a gaff rig before.

[Christopher]

I've got to say that I smile every time I pull my Suncat up to the boat ramp pull the mast up and pin it and back into the water in 15 minutes.  I remember the pain of setting up my Hobie 16 for a sail.  What a pain and you couldn't do it by yourself unless you had a tripod.  I wouldn't want a new Suncat at any price because I'd be afraid that I would scratch it.