Torqeedo 1003 electric outboard use

[FireDrill]

I've had a Suncat for 8 very happy years!   As I get older (almost 80) and have become a full fledged orthopedic geezer,  the handling of a 60 lb/4 hp/4 stroke Yamaha, which otherwise has been absolutely great ,  is getting to be too much!(weight, mounting, pulling starter cord, reaching over transom,  maintenance, etc)    I'm thinking about buying an electric  Torqeedo 1003sL outboard .     Has anyone had experience with one of these on a Sun Cat?  or similar sailboat? Is it really equivalent to a 3 hp? Can it mount on the standard outboard mount, can one steer with its built in throttle/ tiller, does the gallows interfere with it,  is the long shaft appropriate?  Is an extra battery  needed or just useful?  How long does recharging via a home 110 outlet take?  What are specs for a minimum solar panel, if possible?  Alternatively, is there another small enough gas powered or electric outboard with a reliable  electric start?   I mostly use my outboard to go and come to my slip: 10-20 minutes before and after sailing or when wind goes calm.   I often only use a total ~2 gallons/year!  As a geezer,  these days I've given up my cruising days and no longer ever need more than a 4 mile range.    Any other observations or hear-say about electric power? 

[Renae]

Bruce and I are both using the eProp Spirit 1.0, remote version.  I do not think the tiller version will fit behind the transom of a Suncat.  Operationally, I really love the motor, although both Bruce and I experienced failure of the same plastic connector.  The importer, Mack Boring, does appear to be standing behind the warranty, but I would wait for the arrival of the remote version of the Spirit Plus if possible, to get the better connection.

I do like having a throttle in the cockpit (I mount mine underneath the tiller, so out of the typically used sitting space.

As for your other questions, the eProp is indeed similar to a 3 hp, likely closer to the Torqeedo 1100 in performance, and refreshingly quiet.  It is more than adequate to push you the 10-20 minutes needed per day.

On flat water, I get about 4.5 knots out of it in my Suncat.

Definitely lighter, so much so that you may need to alter your engine mount by cutting a few springs. 

I'd say electric outboards are more than good enough at this point.  Gas is a pain in the butt.

[bruce]

There's lots of good info of people using electric outboards, like the Torqeedo 1003, on Suncats on the list. This thread, started by Renae, is particularly good. Jim in TC has a 1003 on his Suncat that provides good service. Let us know what additional questions you have!
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0

A couple of other links.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11523.msg86769#msg86769
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11925.msg89636#msg89636

[DanM]

We replaced our 5hp Honda gas engine with a Torqeedo on our SunCat this season. We use it like you, just for getting in and out of the mooring field. We're on a lake, so no tidal currents to deal with. The long shaft motor works and fits just fine on the engine mount. It sure doesn't have the guts or speed of the gas motor, but it does the job and it's a pleasure to not have to deal with the gas, maintenance, etc. And my wife is not intimidated, repelled, and frustrated with it, as with the gas motor, which is a big plus. My only regret about it comes because we are moored in shallow water and it has been an unusually horrible year for weeds on the lake. That prop picks up weeds like crazy. In the <50 yards from the mooring to the dock, the prop gets a massive wad of salad, such that the motor stops propelling the boat and even just shuts down if I try to push it. Had similar problems with the Honda, but it had the power to chop the weeds up a bit and didn't get incapacitated so fast. Quickly goosing the Torqeedo in reverse clears the weeds somewhat, and I am about to make a Mark III version of a lance to clear the weeds off the prop.... this one long enough, I hope, to cut off the weeds without having to tip the motor up. With a pause in motoring for clearing the weeds, we risk being blown into other moored boats. Fortunately our mooring field is in a protected cove so it's been OK so far. Other than this disappointment, we've been very happy with the Torqeedo. And when we put the boat to bed this month, I'll be happy to not have to deal with the heavy gas motor and the maintenance work. As stated in the manual and website for the Torqeedo, the charge on the battery is greatly affected by speed- if you run it at or near top speed, it sucks up juice like crazy. but at lower speeds, it pushes the SunCat along just fine.

[Jim in TC]

As Bruce pointed out, we have a 1003 on a Sun, now in our third season. We have had great service, mostly a short distance to and from a slip. We usually use about 10 or 15% of a 915 battery per outing depending on wind (using more if raising or dousing sail in bigger breeze). We have had a couple situations of lost wind from a distance that can really eat into a battery. We have a spare, which is a nice thing for peace of mind but has never been needed, even with a several mile run back in the calm. The readout gives real time information on state of charge, speed, distance remaining at current speed. Slowing down just a little increases range dramatically. Once (before the spare) the wind died a few miles out with a low battery (last sail of the year) and I asked my buddy if he thought we were more than 2 miles from the ramp. He suggested we slow down. We ended up "motor sailing" back with little bits of wind helping out and made it with almost 10% remaining!

I can't personally compare with a 3 hp gas but we have never been let down. Dousing sail in serious wind (~25 mph, 3 foot chop) a few times have been fine but pretty near the full capability of the motor, and once needing to reef while out in 30 mph+ gusts (it blew up while we were out, honest) and serious chop was successful, if tricky.

I use the tiller arm for control as we pull into our slip or to make sure the motor stays straight in big chop while dousing sail (I have a little wooden fitting that I made to hold the tiller in place). Not much of an issue if you stay out of those bigger winds but hey, a buddy and I have found that a small craft advisory is advice to go out and have some fun...

The remote throttle is great and I think necessary.

I think long shaft is the ticket. You might get away with short shaft and going to the lowest setting on the mount, but then I think the motor will be less handy.  It mounts just fine on the motor mount that came with the boat. You do have to flip it up so the prop doesn't 'run' while underway (I have heard that you can damage the motor). Recharge with the standard charger, from near dead, is around 10 hours. I think they sell a more powerful charger for quicker charging.

As I recall the solar panel they pair with the motor is 50 watt. Nice that it just plugs in but very pricey for what it is. Since we have batteries aboard, my plan, if I ever went solar, was to use a ~30 w panel to prop up the batteries and use the 12 volt charging cable (another optional accessory) to prop up the Torqueedo. I read somewhere (another forum, I think) that the 50 watt panel will run the motor at about 1/4 speed in full sun with a dead battery.

The web site has lots of good info, and questions are usually answered pretty quickly from the contact page. We found a local dealer for the motor which saved us big on shipping, but that would no longer be an option here and maybe only in a few places. We got a battery from Defender, and they carry a full line of motors and accessories along with quite a bit of information (and lowest prices I have seen). We have had one experience with the US service center with a battery recall and they handled everything very well indeed.

The only difficulty I have had (not counting a bad connection once, which I now spray the connections from time to time with a cleaner) is when dousing sail and you drop the motor into the water while at speed (say, 5 mph up) the prop will start to spin and the throttle will not seem capable of taking over. I have learned to get the prop running a bit as I drop the motor in and/or wait until we are almost into the wind. Its another thing that is most likely to happen when you are following the above interpretation of "small craft advisories."

[bruce]

...the prop gets a massive wad of salad, such that the motor stops propelling the boat and even just shuts down if I try to push it.

I bet that's the software protecting the motor. We're lucky not to have that much weed.

...you drop the motor into the water while at speed (say, 5 mph up) the prop will start to spin and the throttle will not seem capable of taking over. I have learned to get the prop running a bit as I drop the motor in and/or wait until we are almost into the wind.

Interesting. I'm sure you've revved the motor up to see if it will actually drive the boat. The prop will spin on any motor when dropped in the water on a moving boat. Another software intervention? I know you can get an error message if you reverse too quickly, but sometimes that's what I need! I'm all for safer vehicles, but I'm very leery about "smart" systems that take control over my input.

[DanM]

On buying the Torqeedo: I haven't seen it discounted anywhere. I got mine during an advertised sale at West Marine. Same heart-stopping price, but during the sale the two carry bags (about a $230 value) came as a free extra. Ran into a snafu where the motor didn't ship right away, so the purchase didn't record until  it was shipped, by which time the sale was over. Spoke to a WM guy who sorted it all out very nicely, I'm happy with the customer service from them. Don't really need the carry bag for the motor, though I'll use it, but the bag for the battery is very nice to have as you carry it home to charge.
  And yes, I can steer with the motor, which is key because in the weeds mentioned above, the Ida rudder just drags.
  At slow speed, we sometimes motor on calm days to a swimming beach about a half a mile each way. Get home with about 70-80 % left. A friend (an electrical engineer) said he used half of a charge to get from the launch to our club, about 2 miles. That's on an Ensign- a full keel boat that weighs a lot more than a SunCat

[bruce]

Dan,

Do you tilt the motor on your SC with the tiller mounted? My friend could on her PC, but it used up most of the travel, and was close to disengaging. The remote was a better solution for her.

That reminds me, the Torqeedo tiller can be used remotely, i.e. disengaged from the motor, by using an optional longer cable. No need for the separate control if you don't want it.

[Jim in TC]

Dan,

Do you tilt the motor on your SC with the tiller mounted? My friend could on her PC, but it used up most of the travel, and was close to disengaging. The remote was a better solution for her.

That reminds me, the Torqeedo tiller can be used remotely, i.e. disengaged from the motor, by using an optional longer cable. No need for the separate control if you don't want it.

On the Sun I can't tilt the motor with the tiller attached (at least the way I have it set up). I just stow it handy and grab it out as needed. I hadn't thought of the longer cable on the tiller; I can see that working but being far less...elegant than the remote throttle.

I replied to some earlier stuff and it did not seem to 'take.' Will try again. I have tried going to full throttle when the prop is spinning (dropped into the water when we are running fast) and it just sits there. Maybe the prop, at higher speeds, is running past "full speed" and either physically or via software can't pick up the signal from the throttle. At least that is the way it seems. Now that I know the issue I can fairly easily compensate.

The software issue when going to reverse is different on ours. Maybe the software was changed to make things run more seamlessly, so a quick reversal doesn't give us an error code. But there is a short but noticeable delay. I tend to overlook this (usually) small problem in my enthusiasm for the motor. It has occasionally meant a more aggressive reversal to compensate...So, not a 'perfect' product but still great for our purposes.

[Renae]

Definitely go long shaft with any motor you use, but particularly the electrics.  With my motor mount at the lowest setting, the long shaft digs nicely.  At one click up, cavitation is already an issue at full throttle.  I always submerge to the lowest setting, occasionally coming up one click to get into a really shallow dock, but then I'm usually rudder up and puttering at much less than full throttle too.

[bruce]

+1 long shaft.

Jim, I haven't had any error codes during use with the Spirit. I did with the Torqeedo when I first used it, and quickly learned to avoid them. Pausing slightly before reversing direction was better than trying to remember how to and then frantically clearing an error code as I drifted into other boats.

The throttle response is slower than a gas outboard, especially when getting underway. The prop is bigger, plenty of torque but slower to come up to rpm. That may be the software as well. With a gas outboard, rev it in gear at rest and the prop spins loudly, cavitating heavily until the boat starts to move and the prop digs in. With electrics there's much less drama. With any propellor drive there will be some lag to adjust for.

[lockwoods]

I have both:
Epropulsion 1.0 and Torqueedo 1003 --both longshafts
Torqueedo with tiller and extra battery
Eprop with remote throttle: easier for docking (i single hand)
Get a least an hour at good speed -- more than i need
Eprop is quieter
Both fit on standard Sunday Cat adjustable outboard mount

Big problems for single handers:
1. Leaving prop in water when under sail probably causes damage (messed up my Torqeedo) and tilting is difficult with Torqeedo tiller; a little easier with eprop (no tiller). Manufacturers are coy about this -- any thoughts?

2. My dock is very tight and difficult for single handling in cross winds
Neither motor backs well on Cat (maybe I can learn more) -- so reverse not really useful --any thoughts?

steve

[bruce]

Steve,

I hope FireDrill is benefitting from the excellent discussion his post has started!

Yes, I would definitely get the motor out of the water while sailing. Not a problem for the short term, but, over time, not good as you've seen. Besides the drag, the prop will be spinning, causing wear on the prop bearings. Even with a short shaft, as I have with my Lehr 2.5, the motor doesn't clear the water with the adjustable motor mount in the full up position. I have to tilt the motor.

As far as backing, I'm speaking as a PC sailor here, although I don't think it makes much difference. The PC doesn't back well at all, the SC, with a stub keel, may do somewhat better. I do drop some centerboard, to help with tracking in reverse, but the most important thing is to use both the rudder and motor together to back in a desired direction. I turn around and face aft, and turn the motor and rudder to the direction I want to go when backing. Until water flows over the rudder it is useless for steering. Fortunately the motor acts as a stern thruster at low speeds, before the rudder comes into play. Used together, I have good control. At low speeds, a crosswind can be a serious issue, especially leaving a dock where the stern, or bow, of the boat becomes exposed to the wind or current while the balance of the boat is still rubbing along the dock. Once clear of the dock, the boat should back where desired.

[Jim in TC]

When we first started sailing with the Torqueedo on SunCat I put the pin in that holds the motor straight. That was really handy for preventing the motor from falling over when tilted up but that was the only benefit. We quickly learned that there was little (or no) control at first and had some...exciting...experiences getting out (and returning) to a slip.

As Bruce rightly points out, we have found that the motor can be used as a thruster. Reversing out of our slip is far more controlled using the motor for steerage but coming back in, especially in a blow, the ability to turn quickly and even use the motor to run the stern almost sideways toward the dock has made our return much less stressful (for us and the guy in the boat next over). Using rudder and motor for control has worked well for us.

[bruce]

Steve,

While I think of it, be very careful with the connector that attaches the cable to the battery on the Spirit. Both Renae and I have damaged ours. As Renae mentioned, the new Plus version of the Spirit 1.0 has a more robust connector.

In my case, we were just heading out for a sail and found conditions to be windier than expected. 16-18 kts, with a long fetch so there was a steep chop. We decided to reef when raising the sail, and planned on sailing over to the lee of the far shore to get out of the chop. With the reefed sail up, I shut down the Spirit and reached back to raise and tilt it out of the water. All looked good as I sheeted in and the sail filled, until I looked back and saw the power cable on the motor to be at a funny angle. My hand must have brushed against the cable as I reached back in the bouncy conditions, I don't remember any moment that I thought there had been significant contact, but the connector had cracked. The motor was inoperative until I could open the connection to remove the broken fragment. Then the trick was to keep the cable engaged with a dodgy connector. Duct tape would have worked, I just held it in place as we limped back.

The issue is they chose to use a quick-acting, 3/4 turn connector; the part that broke is quite thin. I don't think a fully-threaded connector would have failed. The improved version uses SS for the thin parts. The distributor was quick to supply replacement parts, that weren't hard to install, but it is a vulnerability that you should take care with if you intend to tilt your Spirit routinely. The lifting line I installed, that I described in another thread linked above, avoids any contact with the cable when tilting.