Outboard help?

[Zephyros]

The Torqueedo's and ePropulsion's are nice alternatives, aside from the loss of maneuverability Renae points out, but keep in mind the steep price of the batteries and their future replacement costs, if that is within your budget, go for it. The Torqueedo 1003 is really undersized for the Suncat if you sail in any type of coastal conditions or windy inland lakes like I do. My Tothatsu 4HP was not cutting it on my windy lake but when I changed the prop to a high thrust Sail Pro model it works like a charm now.

If I were to start over I would buy the Tohatsu LPG / Propane 5 HP 25" Sail Pro model. It avoids the gas issues, I'm sure the Lehr owners can tell us more, but this is Tohatsu, with a far superior reputation then the Lehr's.

Tohatsu MFS5LPG:
https://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/5_4st_lpg.html

Good prices at Defender, even better during the March Spring Sale:
https://search.defender.com/?expression=Tohatsu%20Propane&s=1

This Trident 1410 LPG Propane Gas Cylinder may slide into the fuel locker, double check the height.
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2276179|2276204|2276205|2276252|2276262&id=59110

[bruce]

Excellent, I hope your Tohatsu is back to normal!

On the Torqeedo and Spirit, I agree about the tiller. I don't need another one. Both have remotes, the Torqeedo is cabled, the Spirit is Bluetooth, with a cable backup. I much prefer the wireless.

Also agree about fixed steering, I tried it for a while on the Torqeedo and was reminded why I said I won't do that again. Also tried removing the fixing pin on the Torqeedo underway. I didn't lose the battery, or either pin (battery and steering), but it was a pain. The leather shim I installed has stiffened up the pivot adequately to leave the motor unpinned, so I can steer with it. I'm just careful to pivot the motor to rest on the deck flange when tilted.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=11523.msg86767#msg86767

The Spirit also lacks a way of tightening the pivot (why?), but it already is tight enough. These motors don't vibrate much, unlike my Honda and Lehr. The Spirit remote version comes with hardware for installing steering cables. I removed that, but left a small arm on front of the motor, a mini tiller if you will. To that I attached a rubber bumper that when the motor is tilted lands between the clamping brackets, preventing the motor from pivoting more than a few degrees. No motor slamming into the deck flange.

I did investigate how the Torqeedo could be readily locked so it wouldn't pivot, without relying on the pin they provide. The best solution I found was to install a retractable, spring-loaded pin, mounted on a platform found on the front between the clamping brackets, that would engage the front to the motor. Retract the pin to pivot the motor, engage the pin to lock it centerlined. Since the motor was a loaner I didn't proceed with the mod. McMaster Carr has suitable plungers, in 316 SS or 18-8 with acetal plungers if marring is a concern. A simple mounting bracket of aluminum angle could be tapped with suitable threads to hold the plunger, adjusted and locked with a lock nut, mounted to the platform shown.
https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/125/3501

I did do a longer write up for another forum, with more photos, and more about performance and battery capacity on my PC. Send me a PM with your email if anyone wants a copy.

[Zephyros]

Bruce,

That sure looks nice, it does beat the Tohatsu and propane tank for size by a long mile.

[bruce]

I agree with Tom about power, make sure it fits your needs. Mike is happy with a 55 lbs. thrust trolling motor on his SC, and others are happy with a small 2-3 HP kicker. 3 HP is plenty for us, more weight on the transom is a real problem.

There is no loss of maneuverability with an electric OB if set up right. And, compared to other 2-3 HP motors, they have a real reverse.

The build quality of the Lehr is OK, not great. In 5 years of use, I never had a carburetor issue, but I did have several gas leaks, the last being a fuel line with crimped fittings that required replacement. I would expect the Tohatsu to be better, but leaking propane on a small boat is a special kind of fun. Explosive, compared to gasoline or diesel. And, leaking fuel will freeze human tissue in seconds, and render any gaskets hard and brittle, so tightening becomes futile. I know propane is safely used in many applications, but it does have its risks.

All motors are great, until they fail to start when it's time to go home!

[Jim in TC]

I have been running a Torqueedo for two seasons now, on a Sun, so will be able to offer some advice and impressions of that motor. As Bruce points out, there are some issues but we have been happy with the motor overall. I skimmed the comparison Bruce mentions, too, and the E would need a close look. When I purchased, there was a local dealer for the Torq and the E was (as I recall) very new on the market so it was an easy choice for us.

I agree that you need the maneuverability of the tiller arm. I ran it fixed for a while, using the remote, and found that I could easily get into trouble at the dock before we had enough way on for the rudder to have good effect. My current strategy is to use the remote for all motor control - speed and direction - and use the tiller as needed to maneuver, stowing it away when not in use. "When needed" is mostly heading out from the dock - just long enough to get up some speed -  and (with a homemade bracket to hold it in place) when dousing sail in big waves, which can cause enough cavitation that the motor can spin off center at the worst possible moment. I would be a little concerned about the tiller arm on the E being fixed, and would want some assurance that the motor would tip up OK with the arm folded.

I advise going all in with the larger battery if you go with Torq. I started with the smaller one, but a couple times further from port with less remaining battery than optimal got me into the larger battery as a spare. Then, with the smaller one recalled and a good offer from the company for an upgrade, I now have two 915 batteries and no worries about range (for my needs, anyway). If modest cruising is in our future, so is a solar panel. I also like using the remote for control. The tiller arm, on our setup, would not be secure when the motor is tipped up. And the remote allows you to be facing forward more effectively than you would reaching back for the motor.

Electric was a great choice for our needs, as I have divested of all other small engines (all yard tools now electric) and didn't want to break the pattern when we got the boat. Maintenance is practically non-existent and (so long as the cables are nice and tight) it starts every time.  One does need to allow for less power in reverse than other motors might offer, so our approach to a dock is always cautious.

[bruce]

Thanks, Jim, good to hear the Torqeedo works for your SC. The 1003 I've been using has the 533 Wh battery, and we have to be conservative to make sure we have enough battery for contingencies. Typically we land with about 50% battery charge remaining. The Spirit has a 1018 Wh battery, much more comfortable.

Just to clarify, the Torqeedo comes with a tiller standard, the remote is extra, and can be swapped for the tiller. With the Spirit it's one or the other, and they aren't interchangeable. Mine doesn't have the tiller at all, so there is no issue with the tiller interfering with tilting. The bumper I installed keeps the motor from uncontrolled pivoting when tilted. The tiller version of the Spirit can be tilted, reportedly, but held no interest for me.

When I steer by the motor in either case it is without a tiller, I just grab the motor and twist it. Like you, I do that around the dock, when there is little flow over the rudder, and when backing especially, to keep my stern pointing were I want to go. I could attach a small tiller-like handle, without the electronics, if the motor was hard to reach. That isn't the case with either motor.

The Spirit doesn't have GPS for SOG, as the Torqeedo does, but my other GPS agreed with the Torqeedo so I'm covered. It does have battery charge remaining and power output, which I use the most. The throttle on the Spirit is stiffer, and could require two hands on a slippery surface. I installed a base with sticky silicone non-skid, and now it sticks like a magnet to gel coat, or varnished wood. I'd done the same with the Torqeedo.

[Jim in TC]

I, too, have on occasion simply grabbed the motor to maneuver and that is effective enough. With the tiller arm slipped on I feel more in control, and don't have to reach back over the transom to reach it. As you point out, it comes standard with the motor so it will be on hand to experiment with. A wireless remote would be handy, as with the Spirit. And a battery that floats, again as with the Spirit, could be a good thing. I have changed the battery while out and about and there seemed only a little danger in reasonable conditions and the motivation for care is very strong.

I would not want to routinely try to put the fixing pin in and out while underway, as removing the battery that often to gain access seems imprudent. I agree that is not a viable option.

[bruce]

Just curious, Jim, what do see for hull speed under power, and at what power level is that reached. We see about 4.5 kts. at 65-70% power, beyond that is wasted unless we need the torque. The Honda and Lehr were about the same. Under sail, I've seen 5.6, 5.4 on several occasions.

[Jim in TC]

I have little info on speed under sail, since I rarely leave the Torqueedo display on for long and have no other instrumentation. But on a recent relatively high speed sail with the display on for quite a while we were seeing 5+ consistently and peaks nearing 6 (mph). Under power, without benefit of having taken notes or made a point to monitor closely, I would say our experience is at least roughly similar on a Sun Cat, probably a bit less speed. I usually 'cruise' into the marina at around 2.5 - 3 mph at roughly half power (maybe a bit above) and hit 5 mph or so nearing full power. We go to full power when dousing sail in big wind and heavy chop, and have not yet gotten into trouble in those conditions, though it has been a near thing a couple times (at perhaps 25 mph wind and 3 foot choppy waves). In calm water our experience is similar to yours - that you get only modest benefit above around 3/4 power - and significant loss of potential distance. Even a slight decrease in power in those conditions makes quite a difference in time and distance remaining.

[bruce]

Thanks. You are correct, my numbers are for mild to moderate conditions. Slamming into 3' chop and 25 kts. of wind I'm busy, and using what I've got.

We have about a 1 NM transit from ramp to sailing grounds, past several marinas and mooring fields, so lots of traffic at times, and finally through a dredged channel. We have to keep up, but 3.5 kts, which is about 50% power, is a good compromise heading out. Coming back in I'm less patient, I no longer have to save much for contingencies, and I'm fending off any powerboaters heading towards the ramp, so 4.0 kts is more typical.

It is amazing how critical it is to watch power consumption. First time I used the Torqeedo I went through 10% of the battery charge in maybe a 100 yards. Got my attention.

[Jim in TC]

True enough, the need to watch the power...we have a short run to open water and in light to moderate air we often set out and motor back in on under 10% of the larger battery (and, when we had it, sometimes 10% or less of the smaller battery). But a longer run in (loss of patience in light air, for example) or heavy conditions can really cut into the capacity. Head winds make a difference as well.

[slode]

The sad truth of the physics of work and the efficiency of propellers. 

Specifically battery energy capacity vs. gasoline.  1 gallon of gas contains 33.7 Kwh of energy.  At worse 4 stroke outboards run at around 15-20% efficiency turning that gas to useable energy (rest goes to heat).  That equates to over 1200 amp hours of 12V power required to match a 3 gallon tank.  That's a lot of battery!

[Jim in TC]

The torqueedo batteries run at 29.6 volts, so if my calculations are done correctly my 915 Whr battery boasts (providing for rounding) 31 Ahr. Ya, physics is a bear. Still like the motor, though!

[bruce]

For energy density, gasoline beats propane and electric, no argument there. Fortunately, I don't need to maximize the range for my outboard. The battery bank is integral to the motor, a requirement, and should be enough for us. FWIW, electric propulsion at these levels and higher is always at higher voltage, to reduce the amperage. From the manufacturers: The Spirit is rated at 40.7 volts, 24.6 Ah, and 55% efficiency; the Torqeedo 1003C is 29.6 volts, 31 Ah, and 48% efficiency.

Personally, my motivation is to increase reliability, to reduce the stress for what is suppose to be fun, having been let down by both my internal combustion outboards this summer. Both had been serviced, started right up in the driveway, ran fine at launch, and failed to start for the trip home. At last count, I have 10 small gas motors I run and maintain, including the outboards. Having the tractor crap out when it's time to mow the lawn is a pain. Having to tell the crew dinner will be late is worse.

[Tim Gardner]

Bruce, I feel your pain.
TG