Scuppers...That Ain't Right

[Renae]

I've found my probable leak.

Armed with new scupper valves and 4200, I went out to the barn to tighten up my transom.  The left and right drains at the waterline look like this:



One the other hand, the center drain (draining the area around the fuel tank) looks like this:



Best I can figure, the PO replaced a fitted piece of PVC drainpipe with one of narrower caliber, leaving a sizable gap (which was, prior to my digging it out) sealed with some soggy, porous sealant.  Would you still go after that with 4200, or, given the area to fill, take another approach?  I'll be testing over the next few days to see if water near the fuel tank ends up in the bilge, but water pouring in the transom certainly will.  Also to be determined whether I could transition back to a well-fitted section of pipe, but I'm too big to hang out under deck, so that may be difficult.   How would you proceed?

[crazycarl]

What boat are we looking at?
I can get to mine, (19) but when inside i wonder, is this the time i get stuck and the fire department cuts a big hole in my boat to "rescue" me? ?

I'd find a small friend and talk him/her into climbing inside. ?

[Roland of Macatawa]

Renae:

You have three waterline drains?
My SunDayCat has only two, left and right but not center.
Did your previous owner add the center one?
If so, the entire center assembly may be suspect.
Or do all SunCat variants have three? I don't know.

Need to hear from another SunCat owner.
My boat's scupper design might not be relevant to you.

Regards, Roland

[Renae]

What boat are we looking at?

Suncat, 2004. 

Looking at online images, it seems that having 3 scupper/drain assemblies near/at the waterline is common.  The central assembly drains the pan under the gas tank.  I just can't believe that the loose fit that I am seeing is stock, and I'm wondering how well I'm going to be able to close the gap with marine sealant.

Pouring a bucket of water into the drain area today, most everything pours out and there is a trivial drip inside at the transom itself, which may be coming off the exposed assembly.

[Jim in TC]

Our 2006 Sun has the three drains as described. I am pretty sure I saw 3 on a newer Sun that I looked at one time but can't say for certain. I expect that the scupper system was changed at some point, probably recently.

I am wondering if you could fit/glue a PVC coupling on (cut in half) to use up much or most of that gap. Then caulking it in might be less dicey. As long as the drain seems to be working, that kind of jury-rig might be all that is needed...

[bruce]

I agree with Renae, the loose drain pipe is bogus. The PC drains are done like the first picture, maybe an 1/8" gap around the pipe where it emerges from the transom (hard to make out with the ball scupper flange in place). Mickey mouse to rely on sealant this way, IMHO, there should be a proper flange on the pipe.

But, at least on the PC, structurally the pipe is sound because it's glassed in place on the inside of the transom. Water in the pipe won't get to the bilges as long as the glass is intact. The questionable seal of the pipe as it passes through the transom can lead to leaks, and rotting of the plywood core, of course. But again, the undersized pipe is just not right.

What seems critical, but not being discussed, is what's going on inside the boat with the pipe at the transom. Jim had to pull the horn, as I call it, to access the gudgeons. Is there no easy way to inspect/access this area on the SC?

If the pipe is free to float around, no sealing with caulk will fix the problem. I'd bet good money the pipes were glassed in originally, and any repairs should be as well.

[DanM]

Have you talked to Gerry at Com-Pac about this, he's very helpful. Email him the pictures and see what he suggests.

[Renae]

Bruce,

A particularly elfin person might be able to access from the inside.  I cannot, at least if I ever hope to come out again.

What I have decided to do is to drill a small channel underneath the pipe.  If this mobilizes it, great.  If not, at least I will have a crack to completely fill.  Even if I can centralize the pipe, it's a 1" in a 1.5" hole, so there would be 1/4" all around.  I purchased some gap filling epoxy, which I intend to pack around the pipe once prepped.  I will use 4200 to seal any gaps I can't get all the way closed.

I really, I would get at it from the back with the West System, but I'm not going to be able to get in and out, and working under deck with fiberglass would probably be rather toxic.

When I removed the scupper, there was a soft, caulk-like plug in the hole, but it was porous and by no means water tight.  Hopefully I will be able to do better with epoxy.  Heading out to do it now.

Renae

[bruce]

Sorry, Renae, if anything I said caused you to feel I was insensitive to your problem. I truly don't know what access is available in the different SC models. There should be, because it's a critical area. If Com-Pac has failed to provide access, at least for inspection, that's a serious concern.

Good luck stabilizing the pipe.

[Renae]

Sorry, Renae, if anything I said caused you to feel I was insensitive to your problem. I truly don't know what access is available in the different SC models. There should be, because it's a critical area. If Com-Pac has failed to provide access, at least for inspection, that's a serious concern.

Good luck stabilizing the pipe.

Um...what?

I didn't feel slighted by you Bruce.  I was happy that you responded.  You know your ****.

I went after the hole today.  I couldn't sand well inside it, but I thoroughly molested it with a drill bit and cleaned it out with acetone.  I then filled with gap-filling epoxy.  It's curing right now, and I will probably top with some 4200 tomorrow, as it seems to be contracting a little.



At the very least, the 1/2" gap is now a hairline crack.  Weather still looks iffy this week, but I'll get it in the water somewhere and see what I've accomplished.

[Renae]

In terms of access, you have to crawl down into the chain lockers.  I've plunged headfirst into them a few times, but I can barely see the transom, let alone reach it.  Next sail I need to look in and see if any water is running to the sump.  Hopefully not.

Access to the bow eye is only slightly better.

[bruce]

Looks solid, hopefully it does the trick. Still not clear what happened here, I have visions of torn fiberglass tabbing where the PO wrenched out the old pipe. Not sure why or how that would have been done.

Yah, getting to our bow eye would be a joke. Next time I have to access the transom I'm going to replace the 6" deck plate they provide with a larger rectangular hatch. This one may fit, don't have much room. Weather tight, I wouldn't trust any of these to be truly waterproof. If I remember to put the scupper plugs in, our cockpit is generally dry.
https://www.go2marine.com/product/211322F/tempress-1115-access-hatch-cam-latch.html

May your bilges stay dry!

[Renae]

Looks solid, hopefully it does the trick. Still not clear what happened here, I have visions of torn fiberglass tabbing where the PO wrenched out the old pipe. Not sure why or how that would have been done.

Yah, getting to our bow eye would be a joke. Next time I have to access the transom I'm going to replace the 6" deck plate they provide with a larger rectangular hatch. This one may fit, don't have much room. Weather tight, I wouldn't trust any of these to be truly waterproof. If I remember to put the scupper plugs in, our cockpit is generally dry.
https://www.go2marine.com/product/211322F/tempress-1115-access-hatch-cam-latch.html

May your bilges stay dry!

I'm not sure what you are saying about scupper plugs.  As I understand it, the scupper valves (should they flap up or flap down?) should be the only line of defense.  If you're going to put plugs in the pipes, what's the sense in their being there at all?

[bruce]

This feature may be unique to the PC, but I call it the self-filling cockpit. The scuppers are close to the waterline, and if I'm at the stern, tending the OB for example, water will come up the drains. PC sailors sail with rubber plugs, that come with the boat new, in the cockpit-end of the scuppers, unless there is a real risk of taking a wave and flooding.

Many also install Flo-Max Ball Scuppers, made by the same company, THMarine. The flanges have the same hole spacing, so it's an easy swap. Their advantage is they effectively seal the drain, unlike the rubber flap style which isn't very effective in my experience. The drains have to be open if you're away from the boat and it's outside, of course, so it doesn't fill up with rainwater, or chop or wake if you're in the water. With the ball scuppers, and you're on a mooring or at a slip, when you return to the boat you can go to the stern and install the plugs without filling the cockpit with a couple gallons of water in the process.

In the example above, with me tending the OB at the ramp, the ball scuppers seal the drain from water coming in. Once underway, at about 3 kts, the balls are sucked off their seats, and water will come in if the rubber plugs aren't in place. It's a lesson quickly learned. With the boat properly trimmed, on it's lines, the drains are above the waterline, but the boat is so light, the second I go back to the stern, the drains are underwater.

[Renae]

With the flap-style scupper valve, does it make any difference what the orientation of the flap is?  I'm trying to decide which way would let more water in while floating at rest.