Wish List for a New Com-Pac 23 Diesel

[Zappple]

Greetings!  I just joined the group today.

I am about to send a deposit to the Hutchins Co. for a brand new Com-Pac 23 Diesel, and I would some advice about what options or modifications you would choose if you were buying your own brand new 23D.  This is fantasy, so don't worry about the cost.  I'll worry about that!

I sail on a small lake in Ohio, 5 miles long by 1.5 miles wide.  I am planning to keep the boat on a dock there most of the time, then trailer the boat for trips to Lake Erie or the Chesapeake 2-3 times per year.  I have sailed a Flying Scot for 10+ years, and chartered a dozen times in the Caribbean.  I don't race, but my biggest stumbling block to choosing the Com-Pac 23 was its light wind and pointing (dis)ability.  I enjoy playing around with sail trim and learning.  I'm interested in anything that will help with the light wind and pointing ability of the 23.

In addition to the list of standard equipment, here are the options that I am planning:

Custom Hull Color - Navy Blue
Transom boarding ladder
Halyard winch
Bulkhead mounted compass
Sunbrella fabric cushion in lieu of vinyl
Privacy curtain
Genoa 155% hank-on with Genoa sheets, tracks, cars
Sail cover
Hatch screen
Teak cockpit grate
12V outlets (I added a total of 5, since I am planning to use them for a handheld GPS/chartplotter, handheld VHF, and two fans, and a refrigerator)
Custom trailer, galvanized, tandom axle, spare tire
PVC trailer guides
Epoxy coat anti-fouling
Bimini top
Cockpit cushions 2" PVC foam
Removable cockpit table
Midship cleat
Sheet winches - Harken #8
Sternrail, Lifelines, stanchions
Mid-hull Rubstrake
Raymarine i40 Bidata (speed/depth)
Wavefront tiller clutch
Power Pack - Yanmar 2YM15, 2 cyl diesel
Mast raising system
2 Marine batteries
Racor fuel-water separator
Electric, automatic bilge pump


Here is the list of options that I am DECLINING:

Roller furling headsail system
30 amp shore power service
12 amp battery charger (I figured the diesel alternator would charge the batteries)
Cradle
Marine Head with holding tank (removing the holding tank allows me to double the fresh water tank)
Pedestal steering
Pedestal mount compass
Upgraded motor bracket
Raymarine ST1000 tiller pilot
Windlass


Here is the list of additional "custom" items I am planning:

C-Head Shorty composting head
25 pound Manson Supreme with 40' of 1/4" chain
7 pound Danforth
SEMCO Honeytone to all exterior teak (to be reapplied twice a year)
Dometic CF 25 refrigerator
20 gallon water tank (the standard is 10 gallons)
Additional long piece of teak on the coaming under the jib winches
LED lights to replace the incandescents
Marinco 4" stainless solar vent to replace dorade
2 Caframo Sirocco II fans




Here is a list of questions yet to be answered:

1. Am I foolish to not have a power windlass since I will have a diesel to power it? 

2. I would like to have better sail control.  Would you recommend a Garhauer rigid boom vang or maybe a Seoladair Boomkicker?  Would you have a Cunningham added?  Do you have a traveler?  Can you PLEASE post pictures if you do?

3. I sail in light winds frequently.  I am planning to get a 170% drifter of 1.5 oz nylon (approx. 200 sq ft of sail area).  I also looked at tri-radial main and headsails sails from Hyde.  Mack can custom make them also. I am going to wait on that, but what are your thoughts?

4. Should I have Hutchins go ahead and install pad-eyes for a drifter?  They didn't seem to have done that before.  I did read a post that recommended placing them in the "back corner of the deck behind the deak cleats".  Does this mean behind the aft mooring cleats? Where EXACTLY would you put them?  If you have pad-eyes for a drifter and have pictures, PLEASE post them.

5. Which handheld VHF and handheld GPS chart plotter would you get?  I figured that since I'll only need a GPS chart plotter when I am trailering the boat to bigger water 2-3 times per year, that a permanent mounted GPS would be silly.  Make sense?

6. Am I foolish to forgo roller furling?  I want maximum light wind performance, so I figured hanked on would be the way to go.

7. I normally store my Flying Scot under a cover.  Should I get one for the 23?

8. Should I have an emergency tiller?  What other safety equipment would you get, besides PFDs, horn, distress flag, fire extinguisher?


Thank you so much for your help.
I'll post this to the Facebook group as well as the website/forum, since I don't know if members read both.

[PJ]

For handheld  I love my Standard  Horizon  870.  It floats, has weather, and distress signal for sending your ID  and GPS coordinates to coasties.  It is rechargable.

For handheld gps  Garmin 78sc which includes coastal charts and compass.  I also installed  a Dragonfly  small chartplotter which gives bottom scan picture  and provides gps redundency.  I mounted this on a ram mount inside companionway  so I can swing it inside when  not in use.

[Zappple]

Thanks for the ideas, PJ.  Do you have an opinion about a rigid vang or a traveler?  Have you made any modifications to your boat that you would want on a new boat?  Any other thoughts about my questions?

[Potcake boy]

Zapple,

I depend heavily on my tiller pilot, so you may wish to reconsider that. Compare the Engle fridge to the Dometic. I believe the Engle uses about half the amperage. I have a 50 watt solar panel on the stern port side rail which keeps the batteries up and provides most of the power needs when sailing.

[brackish]

Ditto on the tiller pilot, one of the best things I've added.  I would forego the factory mast raising system if it is the trailer mounted unit.  Heavy, unwieldy and you might find as I did, raising the mast on the water is easier. I had one and got rid of it.  There are a number of inexpensive systems that are far better.  Can't speak to the drifter, but I use blocks with dynema  loops (climbing) that slip through the aft cleat eye like a a mooring line loop does and they work great for my spinnaker sheet lead blocks.  If you single hand a lot, you will miss the roller furling.  Personally don't think a traveler will bring much to the party unless you have them custom mid boom sheeting, but a vang of some type is essential.  I have a two block 4:1 vang that does fine, don't have experience with the rigid type. Your thoughts on the GPS are accurate, I just trailer occasionally to new areas and although I installed a ram mounted unit, a hand held would have done the trick.  Not much you can do to make it point better, the mod for old boats is replacing the flat blade rudder but your new on will come with a foiled unit.  You should look at my lift handle mod. Hutchins probably won't do it, but you will find out you need to or you will have a constant problem with unwanted kickups.

[captronr]

Your first item listed is what I'll comment on.

Our Eclipse is a dark blue exterior.  It is absolutely beautiful.  BUT, two things caused me pause.  Our boat came to us used, and it had been slipped where the starboard side received a lot of dock rash.  Then, the first time we went out, big winds came up, we had a furler issue, so we had to come in fast.  The only slip in this small lake was for the lake's pontoon boat (it was out for winter).  We scraped the starboard side against some exposed ends of 2x12 decking.  More scratches.

Everywhere the blue was either dock rashed, or deep scratches in our docking, our bright blue became exposed WHITE.  A white exterior, when scratch, wouldn't show nearly as much. 

Just my two cents.

Ron

[H2operator]

The item that stands out for me is the roller furling, it makes handling the boat so much easier and safer especially if you are single handing. Id suggest having all the running rigging routed to the cockpit. Considering that you're planning some trips to the Chesapeake it's possible that you may see some conditions where leaving the cockpit is sketchy. Lance

[Gus]

The item that stands out for me is the roller furling, it makes handling the boat so much easier and safer especially if you are single handing. Id suggest having all the running rigging routed to the cockpit. Considering that you're planning some trips to the Chesapeake it's possible that you may see some conditions where leaving the cockpit is sketchy. Lance

I second that. I almost went overboard trying to get the jib down during a bad storm out in the Chesapeake. Also, it didn't help I was wearing flip flops.

A tiller pilot helps out a lot. I went with the ST-2000+

I ordered a 4 inch Marinco stainless steel night/day solar vent to replace the factory vent, and IMO found it to be way too big for the foredeck, so I'm waiting for the 3 inch vent and send the other one back.

Gus

PS: for light winds can't go wrong with a drifter. I've been carrying one around 3 sailboats so far.

[NateD]

I had a boomkicker on my 23 and liked it better than a topping lift. I had a clip that hung down from the back stay, so when I wasn't sailing I could attach the boom to the clip.

I'm more of a set-and-forget sail handler, so I can't comment on how to get the most out of the 23 with that respect.

If it were me I would do roller furling, and run all the lines to the cockpit. Your list has a halyard winch but it doesn't say whether that is mounted on the mast or the cabin roof. Obviously if you run everything back to the cockpit, you want that on the cabin.

I would get the ST1000. I even installed one on my CP16. To me, there is nothing better than setting that thing to auto with plenty of open water in front of me, then sitting back and enjoying the ride. It also helps a lot in getting sails up/down if you single-hand or your crew mates are more passenger than crew.

I think my CP23 had an 11kg claw and 25' of chain and it was no problem to haul up without a windlass. I would skip that.

You might consider a manual bilge pump too. If you're going on big water, PLBs are getting cheap, down around $200 now. Auto-inflate life jackets with a PLB attached is cheap insurance.

On your 20 gallons of fresh water, consider boat balance. I don't know where all the tanks/batteries/storage are located on the newer CP23D, but think about the weight distribution with various tanks at different levels of full.

On my current Dolphin 24 I skipped the typical shore-power and charger too and with 50w of solar to keep everything charged up. I image you won't be using much power with LEDs and some hand-held devices, but if you're setting the boat up to sail in even the lightest winds, and the lake is only 5 miles long, you aren't going to be spending much time running that diesel either so I wouldn't count on that as your only charging device. A small 25w panel would probably keep things topped off if you're only using it a few days a week.

I didn't see anchor light on the list, not sure if that is a standard item or not, as well as a windex.

[Bristol14]

Roller furling for sure. Will never own a sailboat without it. Also, running lines to the cockpit a must for single handing. Either have installed or DIY single line reefing for your main, again for single handing.

[Salty19]

Hello fellow Ohio sailor. 

Wow--you asked a ton of questions at once!  Sounds like you've making lists and checking them twice.  Bob is going to double his usual $5,000 clam new member fee with all the questions. Make that triple, you're from Ohio, i want my cut too!

All jokes aside, you might want to search here on some of the items you mentioned as many things have been discussed at length.  This site has gone back over 10 years with a lot of knowledge contained.

I too am on a 5 mile lake in Ohio and sail a 19.  It's outfitted well, but obviously is not a 23 diesel.  And I don't sail Lake Erie, but understand what it would take to do so, although I can't say I would take my 19 up there as I've been scared poopless in a 45ft power cruiser, let alone a 19' keelboat!

That's quite a list and sounds like you want to outfit it well.  Just be careful not to overdo it...you might think you need something, but don't really need it, or may end up being a negative.   Such as the cockpit grate.  It will just add aft weight (which you want to minimize to reduce dragging the stern), reduce knee bend angle and be another varnish maintenance item. Sure, they look great now, but long term perhaps not.  Only you can decide that I guess. 

-Furler--Get one for sure.  The little extra trouble raising the mast with one exists, but you'll soon love having it.

-30A shore power--definitely get that too if you'l be up at Lake Erie.  You'll want to recharge batteries and have the ability to run tools, fans, blenders, etc. I think you'll regret not having that installed as it will be a pain to do it later on.

-Cockpit crate and teak trim--it's just going to add weight and maintenance and will soon look beat up, IMO.  I think you should skip it.

-That manson anchor sounds heavy, but I don't know what the right weight is for your boat with that anchor in lake erie.  But, the danforth seems to light.  I used to use a 9lb on my 19 and would drag it.  I use a 11lb bruce style now and it holds better well, albeit I've only done so for a few hours at a time.

-Autopilot...absolutely if you think you'll be traveling longer distances, say over the Middle Bass or Kelleys.

-Tiller clutch.  Best thing since sliced bread.  Must have item.

- Light air drifter.  I have one and spent a ton of effort making sure I had the right sail size and cut,  the right fittings, the right mounting location of the turning blocks, etc.   It took some diagraming and manual fitting as there wasn't a setup to copy, and every sail is sized and cut differently when you're talking about custom drifters.    You may have to actually install it to see where the right turning block location should be. That's a very critical point, and you can access that area along the coaming or on the rail later on.  Mine are mounted on clamps on the lower aft rail, then ran back to the genoa blocks. But hard knowing where yours will end up.  My drifter is a 1.5oz nylon 170%, "flying" (ie rope luff that is not on the furler or forestay), and the luff is inside the foretriangle, so I can tack it like a normal genoa.  So you have to mount the head and foot inside and the sheet angle at the tack will define the turning block point.  It might be tough for the factory to get this right without a known configuration.    I would suggest a 160% instead, it will shape more easily in super light air and help to not overpower near the top of the range of use.   Plus it will be very hard to see around such a large sail.
If you want to check mine out near Columbus to see what you are getting yourself into, let me know.

-Boom vang--definitely get one.  I like a 4:1 purchase block/cam cleat setup with snap shackles so I can remove it faster for trailering.  Never used a hard vang, but I'm not sure I would want one.  Having it adjustable and releasable easily (to raise the boom up at the dock/mooring, and for light or strong winds) is nice.  And I use the tail end of the line as a preventer tied to a shroud.  So it serves many purposes.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.  It will be fun to follow your build and adventures.

[Zappple]

Wow!  Lots of great advice!  I also received lots of response from the Facebook page.

I skimmed almost the entire website/forum before I made my first post, so many of the ideas I mentioned, including the traveler, were borrowed from other members' posts.  The forum is an excellent resource.

I was particularly interested in the unanimity of enthusiasm for a furling headsail.  I figured that I would get much better performance with a hanked-on sail and it would be much easier to change the jib for genoa if they were hanked on, but the ease of single-handed sailing and safety with furling is a worthwhile consideration.  I am used to hanking-on my Flying Scot headsail while bouncing up and down on the foredeck, but doing that on Lake Erie in a blow would be another matter.  I assume that most sailors with a furling sail have a large genoa, and just roll out what they need, rather than switching headsails (and probably never switch out their headsail).  What size would you recommend?  The choices from Hutchins are jib versus 135% genoa.  The 155% is available hanked-on, but not furling.  I assume everyone would recommend the 135% genoa as the favorite furled headsail, correct?

I was also surprised a bit by the lack of enthusiasm for a traveler, and the uniform enthusiasm for a boom vang.  The rigid boom vang would be an easy modification and would allow me to eliminate the topping lift.  The traveler would not be an easy modification and given the advice you've given, I'll focus my attention on the vang and a cunningham.  I've contacted Boomkicker and I'm awaiting their response.

Here's my latest summary of things to add to my list (and I'll discard my plan for a traveler for now):

Boomkicker with boom vang (but make sure you can lift the boom high enough to adjust the Bimini)
Cunningham
Shore power and battery charger
Solar panel for battery charging
All lines led aft
Furling system with 135% genoa in lieu of jib
Remove halyard winch (will foul jib sheets)
Raymarine i50 Tridata with depth, speed, and log
Standard HX870 floating VHF radio
Garmin 78sc handheld GPS chart plotter
Ask Com-Pac if the system includes a battery monitor
Rings for clipping a harness
Consider Engel MT27F-U1 instead of Dometic (make sure it fits)
Raymarine ST1000 or 2000 tiller pilot
Switch to 3 inch Marinco vent
Manual bilge pump

Thanks so much for the constructive comments!

[Zappple]

To CaptRonR and Salty19,
The blue hull and lots of wood are non-negotiable for me.  I know you are giving good practical advice, but those two items are what make the 23 look beautiful to my eye.  I am planning to finish all of the exterior teak with SEMCO twice a year.  I think that will limit the amount of work involved, and still maintain the honey colored warmth of the wood.  My Flying Scot has a blue hull and still looks sharp 12 years later.

[Zappple]

Salty19,
Did you mean to suggest that I get BOTH the tiller clutch AND the Raymarine Tiller ST1000 tiller pilot?  That seems redundant.

[Salty19]

I understand about the color and the wood.  Our hull is a mint green--"mint blue" in the right light, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.  But after 12 or so years of maintaining teak, I'm replacing as much of it as I can over time.

The tiller clutch and tiller pilot are not as redundant as you think.  If you need to hold the tiller straight for minute or two--say to raise the main, or to tack across the small section your small lake, you're not going to want to go to the trouble of setting the tiller pilot too often.

The tiller clutch engages in fractions of a second and is extremely simple to use.

On the other hand, long tacks on Lake Erie would find it handy to engage the pilot. 

Also the pilot uses power--a lot of it if the wind picks up and the weather helm becomes heavy.  Having a simple mechanism that uses no power and sets in a snap will come in handy.  I use mine ALL THE TIME.  Some other benefits---it hold the tiller steady at rest at the dock.  It holds it when you heave to.  And any crew you may have onboard will find it simple and intuitive to operate.

As for performance of the furler vs hank on--I think it's pretty minor on displacement hulls.  Matching the right headsail  and overall trim to the conditions will give you plenty of performance. She won't get any faster than a certain speed.  And in light wind the drifter will really make it come alive.   These aren't racing boats--don't worry about the performance difference.

The CDI type is what Hutchins provides.  I prefer my Harken 00AL model as it's much sturdier, better quality and above all, it's easy to swap headsails on it.  The CDI is a PITA to change headsails, which means you won't do it when you need to.

Also you do not have to buy everything from Hutchins.  I use National Sails for all 4 sails...great quality at a great price,and they will do whatever you want.  Also consider a loose footed, fully battened main.  Do some searching on loose foot and full batten to read more about them.