C-27 Rudder Post Damage / Repair

[deisher6]

I am looking for ideas on how to fix this problem.

Since launching the boat two years ago it has had a slow leak aft of the stuffing box.  I suspected the rudder shaft tube, the stuffing box  and the shaft log (where it is fitted onto the keel).  With the boat now on the hard and having pulled the shaft, prop and shaft log.  The rudder fitting really looked suspicious.  The layers of paint around it appeared to be cracked and separated from the hull.  So I ponied up the $75 that the yard charges to use the travel lift to raise the boat up 14 more inches so that I could clear the rudder.  The SS fitting that I saw on Wes's '27 had been replaced with a circular bronze one or it could be just a model year change, since there is a matching fitting on the top of the rudder shaft tube.  I understand that the newer rudder tubes are stainless steel with flange(s) welded on.



The fitting under the quadrant looks to be similar.



The rudder log tube is pvc that has been 5200'd in at the base and fiber glassed to the hull.  With very little picking of 5200 I was able to insert my knife blade through the joint (all the way).  The bolts for a previous fitting have been ground off and remain in the hull. Part of one bolt complete with the nut is still part of the joint. The bolts that hold the fitting on are just screwed into the glass. 









Here is a photo forward of the tube.



Here is a shot of the top of the rudder shaft tube underneath the steering quadrant.



Still considering what to do: 
            -Just 5200 stuff back together and bolt the the bottom fitting  through the bottom of the hull.
            -Adding more glass at the top and bottom of the tube to reinforce and replace existing structure.
            -Adding more reinforcing glass from the outside at the base of the rudder tube after cleaning up the surfaces,
                 
                  .........then 5200 everything and thru bolting the bottom fitting on.

Would appreciate any thoughts.

regards charlie

[Tney88]

Charlie, I think I'd be pretty nervous if I repaired that with just 5200.  I think I would build it up inside and out with fiberglass (after proper surface prep of course) and then thru bolt the fitting with big washers on the top side.  Maybe you should send your pics to Gerry Hutchins and see what he recommends, he's always been a great source of advice.

Terry Ney
CP-27 "Paradiso"

[deisher6]

Hey Terry:
I agree with you.  Peace of mind is key in sailing.

I do not have much experience with glass work., so I am going to start some prep work while looking around for someone who does glass. 

Thanks for your opinion.

regards charlie

[deisher6]

OK, for what it's worth:
The '86 rudder tube is made out of PVC that is centered between two bronze bushings.  One bushing is mounted on the bottom of the boat pointing up and the other under the quadrant pointing down.  The pvc tube is fiberglassed in-between the two bushings.  I think in the original construction the bushings are through bolted with the pvc pipe in-between; then the whole installation is glassed in, all before the deck is put on the boat.

Spent a couple of hours with wire brushes, Dremmel tools, and heavy grit sandpaper, to clean up the lower part of the rudder tube on the inside and outside.  Removed several nuts and bolts that remained from another repair.  Cleaned out old 5200.  Found a glass tech who seemed knowledgable.  We filled the bottom of the rudder tube with epoxy thickened with chopped glass, then through bolted the lower bushing in place.  This was difficult because the glassed pvc pipe has a larger diameter than the bolt circle on the fitting.  Had to grind away a big enough spot to get the nuts on the bolts.  Before we did anything else we used a ss pipe the same size as the rudder post to ensure that the two bushings were aligned (my idea, but the tech thought that it was a good one), and tightened everything up.  The tech then went inside with more thickened expoxy and sealed up the outside of the rudder tube to include the through bolts and nuts.  The tech worked me into his schedule pretty quick so I did not have a chance to take pictures.

It looks pretty solid and the tech thinks that it is good.  He said that he would really not like to take it apart!    No 5200 was used.

Next replacing the shaft log, stuffing box, and prop shaft.  Had a local machine shop mill another keyway 180° from the old one.  The shop also pressed out the old cutlass bearing and pressed in the new one.  There is a story here, their 100 ton press would not budge the bearing, they were going to cut it out on a lathe.  I told them that Wes had no problem pounding it out with a washer and dowel.......I had all ready tried that and bent the washer.....but re-reading Wes's method...I soaked it in diesel overnight and got it started for the shop.  Loaned them two washers to press on.  

regards charlie

[Tim Gardner]

You qualify as marine engineer in my book!

[deisher6]

Here are some pictures:









I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

regards charlie

[SouthernNomad]

Great job on the repair and documentation for us all to see.

I was wondering if you could give me helpful/detailed instructions or "things to look out for" on dropping the rudder and removing the shaft, shaft log, stuffing box, and flange.

I know that's a bear so maybe you could point me in the right direction... I appreciate your help.

-Nomad

[Allure2sail]

Hi Charlie:
I assume that's a drain for the keel. How low on the keel did you mount it. Wish mine was lower to get more water out come wintertime.
Bruce

[deisher6]

Hey Bruce:
That fitting is the bottom fitting on the rudder post tube.  It is just above the rudder on the bottom on the boat.  The rudder post slides up through that fitting through the pvc tube to the through the upper fitting then into the steering quadrant.

Don't need to worry about the keel freezing here in NC so much.

Hey Nomad:
When we bought the boat two years ago I could not break the locking nut loose on the stuffing box.  I kept coming back to it and eventually after three days was to the point of bringing my sawsall to the yard to cut the shaft.  It finally broke loose and I repacked it.  At that point everything seemed to be tight so I decided not to look any further into the propshaft, shaft log, and cutlass bearing.

In using the boat, there seemed to be an increase in bilge water when motoring.  Not a bunch, about a gallon after motoring for 3 hours.  The stuffing box was not leaking excessively nor was it hot when motoring.  The bottom of the rudder shaft tube seemed to be damp and a teaspoon of water always seemed to collect in the area around the tube.  The space around the shaft log was always full of water also.  The prop shaft also pulled out of the collar that connects the shaft to the transmission when I put the engine in reverse (see blog).  There were enough indicators to rebuild the power train on the next pullout.

Once on the hard either have the boat blocked up high enough or be able to dig a hole under the rudder to provide for enough room for the rudder post to clear the bottom of the boat.  The rudder is held in place with the quadrant and a safety bolt through the top of the rudder post.  I took the steering cable off one side of the quadrant to release the tension on the quadrant then loosened up the bolts holding the quadrant onto the rudder post.  The rudder dropped right down to the safety bolt.  Have someone on the outside to protect the rudder from damage.

The yard pulled the prop ($25!).  Loosened up the collar on the transmission mount and the shaft came right out.  I ground off the two bolts on the shaft log and that came right out after removing the clamps and cutting the rubber stuffing box hose off.

Wes has a good write up on this blog about replacing the cutlass bearing.

When I reinstalled the shaft log I ran the bolts from inside out.  Did this for several reasons: 1)  the yard and a mechanic recommended it, 2) it is a bit easier, but 3) mainly it was easier to put a larger set of washers on the inside to tighten up against.

Still waiting on a replacement for the stuffing box hose to reassemble everything.

Hope this helps.

regards charlie

[SouthernNomad]

Very much so.

Thanks Charlie!

[deisher6]

Assembled the power train yesterday.  Everything seemed to rotate freely so bumped the engine a few times and everything still seemed to rotate freely. 

Reinstalled the rudder today.  Just for the heck of it I smeared the rudder post with lanolin.  I also cleaned up the top bronze fitting and liberally coated it and the plastic washer that the quadrant rests on with silicone grease.  I used a small hydraulic jack to hold the rudder in place while I tightened the bolts on the quadrant.  I replaced the cable that I removed to ease the tension on the Quadrant.  (Windrunner has the cable conduit steering set up.)  I centered the wheel and rudder and tightened everything down.  It works smoother than it did before the haul. 

Wes thought that the steering was rough last time that we sailed.  I was used to it, but have to agree.

Painted the bottom of the lockers since they were cleaned out.

Will launch on Tuesday and remain over night by the travel lift in case of leaks.

Will post a few flicks tomorrow.

regards charlie

[Tim Gardner]

Congrats in advance Charlie
TG

[deisher6]

For what it is worth. 
The boat is back in the water and so far all the water is staying on the outside where it should be. 



Had a long list of stuff to do:
-two new thru hulls for depth and knot sensors (drilled out the old thru hulls and used the old holes)
-mounted two new depth and speed outputs on a piece of starbord over where the old SR Mariner gauges were located
-pulled the prop log cleaned it up and replaced the cutlass bearing
-replaced the rubber stuffing box hose and clamps
-repacked the stuffing box (much easier to do with the prop shaft and stuffing box out of the boat!)
-had a machine shop machine the proper size keyway in the prop shaft
-dripped the rudder and repaired the rudder tube
-painted the bottom

The only thing that I would do differently would be to install a 4.5 -5 inch instead of the 4 inch stuffing box hose.  This would allow the stuffing box drip to run forward into the bilge instead of the space in the skeg around the shaft log.



Yes I know that I should have staggered the hose clamps.  I do not think that the extra length would compromise the integrity of the drive train.

In another part of this blog storage in the cockpit lockers was a topic:  Here is the rack used to store the drop boards for the companionway.





Goin' sailin' this weekend!

regards charlie

[deisher6]

Went sailin', put about 20 hours and 50 miles as the crow flies.  Yesterday 15-20 knots gusting 25 mostly windward sailing.  Today 10-15 downwind.  Steering was great, no leaks, the stuffing box is loose enough to freewheel the prop yet not dripping excessively or heating up, shaft alley dry. 

I may get someone more knowledgeable than I to align the engine and shaft assembly.  There is a little more vibration than I think necessary.

With replacing gaskets, and especially the instruments on the starboard side of the companionway (open to the head) there is only one leak in the cabin.  I think that it is from hatch/vent above the dinning table.  I have not replaced those gaskets yet.  I did not appreciate how much the old instruments were leaking into the bathroom pan, collecting in the corner behind the toilet.

Yesterday I wound up in the middle of a race with increasing winds, I had to switch out the 150 for the 110.  It was all windward so the J-boats were really moving and passing me.  Yet even they were luffing in the gusts.  HOWEVER when got to Oriental it was packed, so I and two other boats sailed downwind back towards New Bern.  One was a J-109 the other a Pearson 35.  The J 109 had an asymmetrical spinnaker and pulled ahead probably a knot an hour but the Pearson was really left in the dust.  The C-27 is a fast boat lightly loaded downwind wing and wing with light chop.  Might have done better against the J if I wasn't to lazy to change back to the 150.

Windrunner may not be pretty but she is sound and going to work well for another 15 years or so.

regards charlie