Bilge pump advice on a 23

[fried fish]

I need some suggestions on rebuilding, replacing or even going electric.
Any thoughts or experiences would be welcome.
Currently on my C23, the original 1984 pump works but leaks at 3 gaskets.
Fred

[brackish]

My suggestion is to rebuild the manual first.  Then, if your boat is to stay in the water for extended periods unattended, add an electric with an auto float switch. The basis for the suggestion should be obvious.

I did that, however, I have to say I've never had a drop of water in the bilge unless I purposely put it there.

I tied into the existing manual outlet hose with a fitting I turned down from a PVC plumbing tee, looping it down from the top so as not to pump water back to the bilge with the manual, and it works fine with either pump being used separately or both being used simultaneously. Details here:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4386.0

[NateD]

I have the same advise as brackish. I did have water in my bilge once when a fitting on the water inlet hose for the head cracked (early spring, water in the line froze). It's a scary thing to show up and the marina and find water sloshing around the cabin sole. After that I installed an electric bilge pump with automatic switch, teed into the existing manual bilge pump discharge. I would suggest going with a large pump (I had a 200gph), I think it cost $50 more than a small one. You'll already be investing in the automatic switch, wiring, the on-off-auto switch and fuse, and doing all the work to rig it up, the small up-charge to a big pump is worth the extra cost.

If you don't have one, I would add a strainer/one-way valve to the end of your manual bilge pump hose too, mine was missing or never installed.

[HeaveToo]

Whoa!!!  One way valves are not suggested in bilge pump lines.  They are a point of issue because they can cause clogs and other issues.

If you run a new bilge pump line, run it out of the transom.  Put a loop in it so that it has a high spot in the hose.  That is all that is needed.

I agree with a larger bilge pump.  I had a 200 gallon unit in my Catalina 30 and I could take a garden hose and place it in the bilge.  I would turn the hose on at full pressure and the pump would pump out the water and have rest periods where it wasn't running because the float switch wouldn't kick on.  That is a good feeling.

[NateD]

Whoa!!!  One way valves are not suggested in bilge pump lines.

And someone was suggesting that?

Yeah, I did. I believe the strainer for the end of the bilge pump hose that I got from Hutchins had a flap in it to create a one way valve, but I could be wrong about that.

So I understand that you don't want a choke point buried in the plumbing somewhere, but what is wrong with the system starting with a one way valve to keep that last little bit of water that can't be pumped out from flowing back into the bilge?

[brackish]

Yeah, I did. I believe the strainer for the end of the bilge pump hose that I got from Hutchins had a flap in it to create a one way valve, but I could be wrong about that.

So I understand that you don't want a choke point buried in the plumbing somewhere, but what is wrong with the system starting with a one way valve to keep that last little bit of water that can't be pumped out from flowing back into the bilge?

Sorry, I didn't read that.

Mine came with a strainer but no one way valve.  My Rule install instructions say no check valves but they are talking about the discharge side, not the suction.  In theory at least, you could pull some trash into the line that can't go through the pump then when it falls back, settles and builds up over time it could trash the valve and block it.  Not sure that is likely but possible.

[wes]

Don Casey, the God of All Boat Things, says: manual bilge pump needs a strainer at the bottom, but no check valve. Bilge water is full of debris, which would almost immediately keep the check valve from sealing anyway.

He also says a manual bilge pump is an essential backup for an electric pump, but should not be the only pump. The reason is that if you're sailing single handed, you can't work the manual pump and find and plug the leak at the same time. Plus if the leak is large, you'll quickly get exhausted.

I've never gone wrong following Don's advice. Wish I had named my children "Don" and "Casey."

Wes

[HeaveToo]

It may be a standard according to ABYC also. 

Either way, You should also have a separate hose for your electric and your manual. 

Running it out of the transom is the best solution.

[brackish]

Either way, You should also have a separate hose for your electric and your manual.

I've heard that statement made many times and yet when I ask why, no one can ever tell me.  Maybe you can. 

When I installed my electric, I struggled with where to run the discharge line.  Certainly the transom outlet would be best but the 23 is already very busy back there with various holes, and stuff.  I have a basic dislike for putting any holes in the hull of my boat.  So I teed into the very large manual outlet.  After I did that I tested it.  I ran the manual timed and measured the outflow.  Then I ran the 12V timed and measured the output.  Then I ran them simultaneously timed and measured the output.  Guess what, A + B = C.  Keep in mind the discharge hose is sized to handle much more flow than both pumps together can put out. 

So have I missed something here?

The truth is, the electric with level switch is only there because my boat is in the water all the time unattended.  However, in my long history with sail boats the only time I've seen a problem where that was necessary was to compensate for a poorly adjusted stuffing box nut on an inboard shaft or one that had packing that had disintegrated.  My 23 has no shaft, and has never, ever had any water in the bilge except for the test mentioned above.  And it is delusional to think that either pump can save you in the event of a major impact hole offshore.  Basic physics.

[Tim Gardner]

One doesn't want a one way or Check valve in the suction strainer because it traps water in the line between the bilge and the pump.  In winter this water could freeze and damage the pump and or the suction line.  There are already two one way valves in the manual pump itself, one on the suction side and one on the discharge side that are absolutely necessary for the pump to work.  In fact, if your manual pimp doesn't work, the flap valves may be fouled.

[HeaveToo]

The reason for a separate discharge line for the bilge pump is to reduce the pressure in the line.  Also, if one line clogs the other one will still function.  System redundancy is the main reason for that. 

[brackish]

The reason for a separate discharge line for the bilge pump is to reduce the pressure in the line.  Also, if one line clogs the other one will still function.  System redundancy is the main reason for that. 

In my mind, not valid in this case.  If it were, A + B would not = C it would be something less than that.  The square area of the very large discharge hose can handle the capacity of either or both pumps with free flow and no back pressure.  As far as clogs, I would rather take that chance than have another hole in the ole boat that could lead to a problem.  It is a matter of probabilities.......

[HeaveToo]

I see your point, but having a second redundant system is very popular in hard core cruising boats.  If one hose is clogged the other will work.  Some boats have one manual bilge pump and 2 electric ones.  I have seen a smaller bilge pump on the very bottom of the bilge with a float switch and a second electric one that is bigger set up higher in the bilge.  The purpose of that is that the smaller pump will handle most normal stuff and the second pump will handle a big event. 

The hose running out the transom is pretty easy to do, it is above the waterline, and it shouldn't siphon.  If you run a hose directly out the side of the boat there is a chance that it will siphon when the boat is heeling.  That is why the manual pumps are one way pumps, they prevent the siphon. 

In my opinion, the second hose is a safer set-up for the boat. 

[brackish]

I can imagine either pump clogging on the SUCTION side and each pump has a separate suction side.  I cannot imagine anything getting through either pump large enough clog a 1.5" ID discharge hose.  To each their own, I'll stick with what I have.