modified sail plan for CP16 and full cockpit enclosure questions...

[mayrel]

I have been researching CP16's and like what I have learned.  I do have a question or two:  Has anyone considered adding a mizzen?  Based on her relatively poor windward performance I also wonder if going to a lug main and small mizzen and eliminating the jib would make any difference?  Lug's usually carry more square feet of sail, making them faster on a down wind run.  A mizzen helps balance the large lug out.  Possibly keeping the stock jib and main and just adding a mizzen might enhance performance on all points of sail?  Adding a mizzen would not be difficult.  I read adding a bowsprit moving the jib forward enhanced performance, so adding a mizzen and a bow sprit might be even better?

One of the attractions of the CP16 is the large cockpit and sitting headroom in the cuddy.  We had a Montgomery 15, great little sailboat, but a bit cramped.  Lots of storage, but not easily accessible and for camp cruising with two adults, you needed a cockpit enclosure to keep things when sleeping in the cabin.  With the CP16 and it's larger cockpit, adding boom gallows and a bimini with sides would provide more sleeping room.  Plus with the larger cockpit drains, showering in the cockpit is possible(not so on the M15 with it's very small single drain).  Although storage is open on the CP16, organizing things accordingly, you have plenty of room.  The cuddy provides privacy when needed underway or anchored, a full cockpit enclosure provides ample sleeping room.  Possibly designing the bimini to include a way to have a spray dodger would also let you sail with it in place.

Any comments are welcome, early thanks, John

[Salty19]

Interesting idea. Can't say I've read about that here, but a good place to talk to about this would be The Sailboat Company if you aren't getting much feedback here.

http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/

Another thought that I have been tossing around if ever I would again buy a CP16 is use a slightly (say 18-20") taller mast used from a different boat, a backstay,  long and strong bowsprit with bobstay (potentially folding if clearance to your truck is limited) and simply larger sails with sized tuned to moving the COE forward, and maybe a secondary removable forestay to turn it into a cutter for many options to distribute canvas square footage. That dream CP16 referred to would also have lead ballast and battery ballast with a bit more leverage to offset the taller mast and add'l canvas. Given the choices of sails on a cutter along with several main reef points, you could match it for just about any condition.  Problem is going up on deck on the 16 isn't too much fun to change out sails but a furler helps.

Not that I am endorsing this plan as I don't about any CP16's with the configuration but it looks good on paper anyway.

Secretly I'm hoping Greene will buy that CP16 discussed in another thread, fix it up just like above and then I'll buy it to save me the work.  A blue hull is fine, Mike.  Can you put a little pilothouse, inboard electric, SS rails and lifelines on it too?  Thanks!  Heehee



Also if you are not using a foiled rudder, I think all would agree to do this first then decide about rigging changes as that will add several degrees of pointing and less weather helm.

[mayrel]

Thanks for the response.  Adding a bowsprit and cutter rig capability seems to go along with the intent of the later model CP16's when they added a bowsprit to move the jib forward/CE.  I'm not a fan of furlers, they have a tendency to fail at the most inopportune moment.  For heavy weather sailing, I'll stick with hanked on sails and use a safety line to go forward to change sails.
My idea of a mizzen added to the stock sail plan might not be such a good idea, particularly if no one else has tried it.  Usually owners' will modify things to enhance efficiency, and keep things simple.  Adding a mizzen is somewhat more complicated, but they have benefits.  I also like the idea of lowering the mast and adding a lug, but the shrouds might be an issue limiting the length of the boom and yard.
I think my idea is probably not a good one.  Adding a foiled rudder and leaving everything else alone is probably the best idea....I do appreciate the feed back.

[Jon898]

Adding a mizzen is only going to make the weather helm worse unless you also move the mainmast well forward in order to maintain the center of effort essentially where it is now (or preferably a bit further forward).  A mizzen is also pretty useless on a small boat on anything more close hauled than a beam reach.  All those pretty yawls from 50+ years ago largely were as a result of the mizzen staysail not being counted in the then-current rating rules.

IIRC the reason for adding the small bowsprit on the later CP16's was to help move the center of effort forward to offset the weather helm people complained about on the earlier models.

[philb Junkie19]

A lug sail and mizzen can be a good combination. Bolger uses the rig in a number of his designs. The mizzen is not really for drive but for sail balance and avoids a lee helm in designs where the mast  is stepped far forward. The mizzen can be adjusted to self steer and with so much sail area up front it can be hardened to help tack. It also helps where the windage of the mast in the bow can make the boat walk at anchor. If you you want to play with rig ideas there are boats in need of work and sails that can be had cheaply. The 16 a very good proven design as is. That doesn't mean one can't make changes.  I also prefer hank on jibs after the roller furler failed on my Albin Vega wind against tide in the at the mouth of the Penobscot river.

In the mid 90's I had an O'day 23 bought with no mast or sails that I wanted to experiment with. I planned a lug rig and met with Phil Bolger to get some ideas. In the end I found a Chinese lug or junk sail that I modifies to fit the boat.  The best place for the mast was not up in the bow so no mizzen was required. 

One of the main advantages of my junk rig is the ability to reef instantly from the helm one or more of the six panels at a time. It was great set up and also helped my better half relax when the wind pipped up as she got used to sailing. Recently it began to look attractive again as age, knees and all made the fore deck of a 16 a less inviting place. Planning to convert the CP16, I made a sail with a newer cambered design and bought the aluminum tube to build a mast.  Then I got seduced by a CP19. I know I'm weak but she looked so good and held so much promise. I didn't help that my wife said I should look at it. She wasn't in love with the 16's cabin and the challenge of using the portaptti in a cramped space. After sailing the 19 last summer I'm glad for the decision despite doing without the junk rig, for now.
If you are interested in other kinds of sails, rigs and design in general you can glean a lot from Bolger's 'Boats With An open Mind' and '101 Small Boat Rigs'

[Mike]

As an old Drascombe sailor (and still), I like the mizzen but do not see the need to eliminate jib or modify the main to lug.  The draw back is managing a transom hung outboard motor with a boomkin and mizzen sheet back there.  Good news is the ample space in the cockpit to manage extra sheets for the new sail.  As long as you are dreaming, how about converting the main to a boom less one (less problem on a gybe).  Now that would be a boat the would hove to in style.

[mayrel]

Thanks for all the responses.  I've just purchased an 83' CP16 from Keith at The Sailboat Shop in NC.  This boat comes with boom gallows,new sails and other new stuff.  Now I'm looking into bimini tops and such.  I'll start a new topic.