INBOARD RUDDER

[Bob23]

Thanks, Mac. If I do this, I'll pick your brain. But I think I've tamed mine enough to reconsider this hairbrain scheme. And the overwhelming concern was always that moving the rudder that far forward would produce lee helm- a bad thing.
Matt:
  I can't comment on the 16's too much. Sounds like you have a later one- (mk3?) is it a mast head rig? The 23's do indeed like to express their inherent weather helm- ask anyone who owns one. My boat (1985 23/2) has a foiled rudder, custom sails made for this particular boat by a local, and quite well known sailmaker who is familiar with our local conditions. I also rake my mast forward a bit. All these have lessened the weather helm and improved the speed and pointing ability of "Koinoina".
  In looking at the photo below of my wood blade, I will admit to making it a bit too wide. Hey, first one! And the rope downhaul, while it does work, it admittedly does not hold it all the way forward. I think with a narrower blade held down by a steel hold down bracket, I could virtually eliminate my weather helm, or substantially reduce it. But any 23 guys will tell you it's there.
  The next big plan would be a longer bow pulpit to further bring the headsail center of effort forward. But before I get into all that, I'll buy a Flicka!
Bob23

[Vipersdad]

You would have to mention "Flickas"................ Flickas and Dana 24's two of my favorites

V.

[mattman]

Bob, the Flicka guys say the same thing, when the boat heels over it develops weatherhelm quickly. There is even a large chart showing sail combos to use to keep her footing and not healed over too much.  I was wondering if you have as much helm when you sail the boat flatter. It would be fun to put a decent amount of meat on the rail and see how she does with the boat flattened out. Seems to me it would be much more effective to affect mainsail shape than putting the mast forward- I will be having dinner with some racing guys Sunday and will ask about this.   Btw the 85 I have is the old rig no sprit. I was told by the Johnson folks that boats of that era could have any rig combo as the builder used up parts. Best of luck.

[Bob23]

Interesting.
  I'd guess that's a good thing for an over-heeled boat to have weather helm- we want her to round up, ayuh?

The 23 hull seems to like to heel. In light air, I do what you were doing at CLR.(yeah, I was watching) and that is sit on the leeward side to induce heel. The 19's may like to sail flat, but my 23 leans toward some heel. I'm only giving you info that I've learned from sailing this boat for 8 years. I'm not a designer or racer. And I do admit to knowing only the basics of rig tuning and sail trim.  They also respond to fore and aft weight trim. 
  This thread has taken an interesting tack. Let's keep it going.
Bob23

[HeaveToo]

Monohauls are designed to sail between 10 and 15 degrees of a heel.  That is optimal and when racing keel boats for many years we would purposely heel the boats in light winds.  It helps them point a little better and balances things better.

After you go over 15 degrees the boat is starting to heel excessively.  Ultimately the heeling would cause the rudder to stall and the boat heads up. 

My boat develops some weather helm as it heels over 15 degrees.  In racing it is believed that a little weather helm is good on a boat with a tiller.  It makes the boat more responsive and racers will balance sails to give it a little weather helm.  Too much weather helm and it becomes a chore to be a helmsman.  On larger tiller boats in heavy weather crews sometimes gang up on the helm when it develops excessive weather helm.

None the less, on a cruising boat weather helm can be a pain.  Balanced sails and sails cut to the boat help.  Balancing the rig with tuning it helps.  In the end, Bob is right, there will always be some weather helm.  Bob sounds like he has his boat set up extremely well.

I hate the wobble feeling I get out of my helm.  Since it is a kick-up rudder and has the joint you have this bump feeling when steering. 

How do we keep getting off on tangents on Bob's threads?

[Bob23]

"My boat set up extremely well." I try but like any intriguing woman, they always keep some secrets and there is always more to learn.
Bob23

[mattman]

I reread my post. To clarify, I think weatherhelm can occur from a lack of balance in the sail plan vs the pivot point on the hull. We all get that part. However heeling by addressing trim through movable ballast (crew) will also induce helm. Not all monohulls will sail best at 10-15 degrees. Some will, some will sail better flatter, few sail better past 15ish, some dig in around 20 and firm up but that doesn't mean it is in it's fasted groove. I think on our shoal draft boats flatter is faster and by that I mean vmg to the windward mark. The more the boat heels the more leeway is made (except maybe a wing as heel is induced the wing may dip lower plus the reduced drag as the tip vortex is reduced-I think that is the right term). At the CLR, I sat forward with one leg inside the cabin to balance fore and aft trim, with my torso just leeward enough to keep the sail shape but the keel as vertical as possible. I would reach back and adjust the tiller just a quarter of an inch at a time (had the bungees holding course for 80% of the time) with my other hand slowly playing the barber haulers up and down the jib sheet to maximize sail shape in the light and shifting winds (it is amazing how forestay sag or lack of, changes the luff shape on the jib). On that particular day the wind went to the left as we sailed to the east side of the lake. I could see the Suncats pointing higher but not making better time to the mark, I thought for sure they would make Coles Creek with out a tack, but that wasn't the case. By the time the 19s and the infamous "O" I mean C'day25 left the line I am not sure what kind of wind you guys were working with. As for CrazyCarl well all bets off there! Seriously, good Karmá to  him for the good Samaritan effort. I do think that the other 16's and one Suncat put in an extra stitch to clear the point and I believe Roger sailed over the shoal noting he had to pull the board to clear it. I tacked over not being as confident about the water depth, but it killed me to do so!! Can't wait for next years CLR, we should do a clinic on the tips and tricks we all use. My best to you all. Matt.

[Bob23]

  The clinic idea is a good one. Sounds like about 10pm on the dock should work!
  The fore and aft trim issue is a real one, for sure. In light air, I'll use a tiller extension to sit as far forward in the cockpit as possible and she'll immediately point a bit higher. I think this is one reason the 23 diesels apparently sail better than the outboard. Much less weight hanging over the transom. I do indeed carry my water supply up in the v berth area and feel this helps some.
  It is fun experimenting with the weight and rig trim. This season, I was so late in getting in that I didn't take the proper time to tune the rig but the main thing, I was sailing! And she was no slouch this summer. It would be fun to sail my 23 at Carlyle..I've not experience in  non tidal waters. But I'm not sure Koinoina will like the lack of salt! Might have to bring my own.
Bob23
 

[BruceW]

Bob,

I see Keith Scott is putting inboard rudder on his CP 23 Trawler, and center-mounting the outboard. Check out the current projects link on his website for his description. www.ipass.net/sailboat.