Hardware attachment to coaming?

[GretchenG]

Hi, all--  I hope a question in this area is okay, because the answer may help others and will definitely help me!  My CP-16 only has the standard jib camcleat at the front of the cockpit.  It needs a genoa camcleat mounted farther back on the cockpit coaming, but I have no way to get up in there to put on nuts or a backer.  What do you do to make hardware secure in this situation?  Thanks very much for guidance--  Gretcheng

[Randy]

I mounted tracks on my coaming using the toggler system. Google "toggle" for details.

[JTMeissner]

Gretchen, a couple of ways to do it come to mind (some better than others).

1 - Mount item on the coaming with good solid screws.  That's the way the PO on my boat did it, and those things were used for over 40 years.  The fiberglass is thick in that area.  While not the best option (IMHO), it did work.  If you wanted to do something like this but make it tougher, you could overdrill the holes in both size and length, fill the cavity with epoxy, then screw into the epoxy "plug."  The foam will hold the epoxy in place while it hardens.  If you don't think plain screws will work for a cam cleat, it was the technique used on my front jib cleats too (again 40 years and probably used more often).  I ended up removing a block of foam to get washers and nuts up there when I replaced the cleats a little while ago; and while I may not like it, that's the way it appears to have been done by Hutchins back in the day.

2 - Screws and anchors as indicated by Randy.  You do have to drill a larger initial hole to get the anchor in.  However, considering that just plain screws held in fiberglass, is a screw in plastic in fiberglass that much better (can the screw pull out of the anchor)?

3 - For my genoa, using what the PO had put on, I ran the sheet through the stern cleat (hollow base) then back to a jam cleat on the coaming (discussion and photo here:http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6061.msg43064#msg43064).  This means the sheet angle is set all the way back at the end of the boat.  There is enough room in front of the stern cleats to drill holes for a cam cleat.  The foam ends with the coaming, so you can get washers and nuts on the machine screws back there.  I have removed the cleats from the PO (screwed on as above) so haven't been able to run the genoa lately, but this is how I think I'm going to do it.  This picture is of the bolts for the stern cleats on the hardened pad which is fiberglassed in.  The PO had no backings put on these at all, just long bolts (not a recommendation).  Getting back there is tight, but access is clear of foam.


Here's an example:



4 - Remove the foam and gain access to the underside.  I believe some others have done this to run track, either on top of the coaming or on the outside of it.  Either way, you'll have to remove some foam.  When I put stern rails on, I had to get access to the underside as in this picture:


The underside of the cockpit seats is cramped, dark, and cutting out the foam was miserable and messy.  If you have a really long drill bit, you can go through all the way through the foam with the smaller holes to better determine how much foam has to be removed.  When I drilled the stanchion holes, I could see the light from the holes through the foam so I knew where to dig it out.  Plan on a vacuum for the boat and a shower for you after working back there.

HTH and gives you some ideas.
-Justin

[GretchenG]

Hmm, lots of food for thought!  Justin, thanks especially for the links to all the genoa sheeting ideas.  Randy, the toggles do seem more secure, and would save digging through that itchy foam..  I appreciate the ideas you have both given me--still thinking...

[Randy]

I used the 3/16 zinc togglers since they would not be exposed to weather. I did use stainless screws with them however.

[SMITH]

Fasco stainless steel "Togglers" are a reasonable solution to blind hole mounts.  At approx. ten bucks a pop (per machine nut) they are pricey, but can eliminate a lot of labor wasted digging through and wasting needed structural/flotation foam.  My SunCat needed hand rails, having no good hand holds along the cockpit coaming.  Two used units, a matching pair that had previously been salvaged from a Bayliner, scrapped in my boatyard many years ago got repurposed for the task.  The Togglers were installed through half-inch holes drilled down through the coaming cap.  An "L" shaped Allen Wrench, chucked in a slow turning electric drill removed just enough foam to allow the Togglers to rotate 90 degrees from insertion mode to mounting mode parallel with the top surface.  A shopvac slurped out the debris. 

Locking them in place was simple.  Once sufficient clearance was achieved, and the Toggler's machine nut end was rotated parallel with the mounting surface, a self locking nylon retainer was slid down the two Toggler legs, the legs were snapped off by hand, and the connection made.  Being somewhat old school, and knowing the importance of keeping water out of boats (weird isn't it), before mounting the rails, each connection point, including screw threads, was liberally coated with 3-M's wonderful 5200 caulk.   My wife calls that my favorite condiment, I display it on a lot of my clothing.  Machine screws were run down through both the 5200 and the Toggler's machine nuts. 

To test the work, once the caulk was set, me and a friend grabbed each rail and did crouching pull-ups off the sides, with no discernible movement in the rails.  The standard for that, published by the American Boat and Yacht Council (standard "H-41.5.4.1 and .1.1 - REBOARDING MEANS, LADDERS, HANDHOLDS, RAILS, AND LIFELINES" calls for "All handhold devices and grab rails shall be securely fastened, and shall withstand a load of 400 pounds (182kg), in any direction, at any point, along their length without failure such that they no longer perform their intended purpose."  If I didn't attain that, I came close.

Keep in mind, best boatbuilding practice (I preach this stuff in courtrooms for a living), when bedding anything on a boat, is to have caulk squoozing out of everywhere when the fasteners are driven home.  The wasted 5200 cleaned up easily with a bit of acetone and paper towels.  Rubber gloves were used for the work.  Togglers are available through Jamestown Distributors, and of course your friendly local WEST Marine store.
John Smith
SMITH Marine Survey Inc.
Sheldon, SC