Too much weather helm or not enough!

[KeithV]

Great day on the water today with my used but new to me Horizon Cat. Winds a steady 13 knots true so l had a chance to really play with all points of sail for a few hours. Overall it was great but l found myself wishing for a tiller since that little wheel was exhausting. If l took my hand off the wheel for more than a few seconds the boat wanted to either round up or fall off, depending on the point of sail. I tried the swing keel up, down and everywhere in between and either had excessive weather helm or not enough weather helm. I never felt the need to reef and did not feel overpowered, but l never found the balance that allowed me to relax the wheel. Any thoughts?

[Jon898]

Assume you had the rudder blade all the way down and held tight in that position?

[Craig]

I can second the above comment. Make sure the rudder is down and locked. Have experienced the same thing on both the Suncat and the HC when the rudder was not fully down. It does not take much kickup to cause the problem. Bumping bottom or a log or even a weed accumulation can do it. Less likely causes could be mast rake(very unlikely in the HC) or sail related. Is the luff tightened and the sail fully raised? Is the gaff adjusted properly? How about the outhaul. A too baggy sail can do funny things(especially on catboats). Since we only have one sail the position of the sail's draft makes a big difference. The adjustment of the gaff essentially controls the position of the draft. A small difference in peak halyard tension can make a big difference and changing wind speed can require an adjustment. I am sure you have checked all this but that is what I can think of right now. Sounds like you have the wooden spoked wheel. Very traditional but the larger "destroyer" type wheel gives you a little more leverage. On most points of sail, with proper trim, Kailani is pretty well balanced and I can leave the wheel briefly. Experiment and you will get it sorted out.

[capt_nemo]

Ditto on the rudder question.

Photo of Sun Cat rudder allowing gravity to position it before tightening handle to lock in place.



Photo of rudder pushed manually down and forward to STOP before locking in place.



Toggle back and forth between photos. Notice the difference in the forward edge of rudder and the transom angle, and different rudder forward tip positions. Just a few inches back from where it should be and the difference in weather helm will be quite significant and certainly noticeable.

Hope it helps to visually see the difference.

capt_nemo

[Craig]

Excellent photos Don! Worth a thousand words!

[KeithV]

You all may have really nailed the issue. Yes, the rudder popped up a number of times and l wasn't able to make it stay locked down. I am thinking l might need to bungee the rudder lifting arm down unless there are other suggestions. I also did not try to play with the tension of the gaff boom. The full sail in a nice breeze was a beautiful sight so l never thought about lowering the gaff. Speaking of beautiful sights...is the background in the pictures above actually Capt. Nemo's workshop? It would be great to be able to work on the boat, car, lawnmower, etc in a shop like that!

[Craig]

If the rudder has kicked up many times over the years the plastic piece at the top of the rudderstock may become worn and allow the tab on the lift rod to override the notch allowing the rudder to kick up.I believe that a replacement is available from Compac. You might also try bending the lift bar slightly inward so the tab gets a little further under the plastic locking piece. I have to make sure that the tab is in fact underneath the the locking piece and secure. Sometimes takes a lot of downward pressure on the rod to securely get it in the notch.Your idea of using a bungee to keep the lift bar tab securely in the locked position is a good one. Rudder movement can cause the tab to slip out of the locking notch.

[capt_nemo]

KeithV,

The large "Man Cave" 3-car garage with 10' doors was borrowed from a friend to work on my boat in air conditioned comfort.

Of course I'm as green with envy as the hull color of "Frisky" the Sun Cat, and wish it were mine!

At the end of a workday there I thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was a PLEASURE to work under those conditions and I really didn't consider it work but more like FUN!.

About the rudder staying DOWN, and locked. Make sure the tightening handle is, in fact, clamping the rudder housing sides together QUITE FIRMLY once the rudder is in the "fully down" position. If not, check the length of bolt threads available, and possible need for a thin nylon washer or two INSIDE the housing on the bolt, on either side of the rudder, to take up some of the spacing. That cast rudder housing can only be clamped (moved) so much by hand with the tightening handle. By the way if your handle is like mine, a piece of stainless bar stock which is quite uncomfortable on the hand, do the following. Take a short 4" piece of 1" diameter Sched 40 PVC pipe, and drive it onto the ss bar handle. If the fit is too tight heat slightly and tap with a hammer just a bit and try again. Really helps with pain free tightening.

capt_nemo

[Jon898]

Keith:

Don't know if your HC has the same set up, but this thread shows what brackish has done on his 23 to stop the rudder kicking up:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=7267.0

Jon

[jb]

I second  capt_nemo's suggestion of

"possible need for a thin nylon washer or two INSIDE the housing on the bolt, on either side of the rudder, to take up some of the spacing."

this worked well for me.

j

[FireDrill]

Capt_Nemo... Great pictures of the rudder positions!  Very illuminating..

Your pics bring up two questions for this new SunCat owner (assuming the corresponding effects apply to a SunCat ) :

1 ) How does one get the rudder beyond the gravity position from the cockpit,  once launched ... My boat came from the factory with a rudder raising line mounted to a V cleat on the tiller. One can not push with a line! (Jumping in over the stern is not a good option...)  It looks like you have some sort of metal rod?  Is it similar to what I see on the Horizon daysailor photos?  Where did you get it, or what are details and dimensions if you made it? Or is there some other way to achieve this forward position? - pushing with boat pole from dock?     

2) Is your rudder a so called  "Ida rudder"  or some other foil ?   Again where can one find such a unit  (I thought I read they are not making Ida rudders anymore?)   Is the balance effect from rudder position more sensitive with this foil shape?  I have the big flat metal (stainless?) rudder per ComPac

Since the original question came from a Horizon Cat owner, the answer to question 1)  is he uses the metal rudder raising device provided. 

[capt_nemo]

FireDrill,

The metal rod, IF PROPERLY ADJUSTED, does a pretty good job of placing the rudder in the FULLY FORWARD POSITION.

HOWEVER, before I got the foiled rudder along with the rod (from Com-Pac), I leaned way over the transom and pushed the metal rudder fully forward with right hand and, while holding it there, tightened the tightening handle with left hand VERY SNUGLY. Even with the rod I double check the fully forward position of the foiled rudder and still tighten the handle snugly to hold it down.

capt_nemo
Sun Cat "Frisky"

[KeithV]

My HC has the metal rod to lift and lower the rudder. Last weekend l lowered the rudder and put a bungee around the metal rod and the black iron rudder mount...sailed for hours in 15 knot winds and the rudder stayed down the entire time. Weather helm was also much more manageable. Thank you all for your advice.

[skip1930]

Neither. Just sailing out of control.

skip.