First time posting

[DougN]

I,ve followed this forum for years(starting with the old cpyoa-as in dial-up)Thanks for all the advice.Being very analog myself or as the grandkids call me a techno-peasant,this is all new,so be gentle.I've owned Windblown-1983 cp/23 since 1998.Since I'm retired now I spent the summer on a redo.After sailing my friends cp23/2 and seeing the difference with weather helm,that's the next project.I,ve been considering a cutter rig(probably more of a slutter-rig)any thoughts pro/con?Has anyone tried this on a 23?

[jthatcher]

welcome to the group Doug, although it sounds as though you have been around for a lot longer than i have!   i also have a 1st generation  compac 23..  i am well aware of the weather helm, although  i have learned to live with it so far..   maybe i will get around to  adding a bowsprit at some point, but, for now,  i just enjoy getting out on the water..   where are you located?  do you have any pics?   i imagine that the grandchildren will be happy to help you post them!   

we just finished out second season with the compac..  there is a lot to love about them for sure!    we will be looking forward to hearing about some of your experiences..  jt

[DougN]

Thanks jthtcher.I'm on the AuGres river(Mi)thats on the northern part of Saginaw Bay.Now full time in once was our cottage.My wife just said the same thing about the pictures, they may be up for thanksgiving.we'll see.Our best to everyone on the east coast.

[Bob23]

Hi Doug and welcome!
   Dialup...now there's a term you don't hear everyday! As you probably already know, you'll find more info, adventures and opinions here than you can possibly use in one lifetime. And some of the info may be true and usable!
   As a fellow 23'er, a double welcome. Mine is a 1985 23/2 with a bowsprit. It's the only 23 I've owned so it's all I know so I don't know firsthand the different feel of the non-sprit 23's.
   Techno-peasant...I like that. Be encouraged: If I could learn to post photos, anyone- and I mean even my dog- can learn. But a warning: If you take too long, you may become the brunt of some good old fashioned ribbing that is sometimes found around here...not from me, mind you!
   Don't you just love the feel of a Compac 23 with sails trimmed just right on a sunny day with perfect wind? Sometimes it seems that all's right with the world...supremly priceless!
   Again, welcome!
bob23 in NJ.
Here's a shot of my 23: Nevermind...photobucket is not in a good mood!

[NateD]

Doug,

     There have been a couple CP23's rigged with an inner forestay that have posted here. Mundaysj (Blonde Ambition, http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=2321.0) had one, but I don't think she ever put a sail on it.

     Davo acquired a CP23 with an inner forestay and sailed it with both head sails this year (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5085.0). He would be the guy to talk to. I think the previous owner of his boat added the bowsprit, so its essentially what you are looking at doing. He has some pictures of the added bowsprit here: http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5009.msg35311#msg35311

     From what Davo has said about sailing it, a permanent inner forestay sounds like more trouble than it is worth, making it hard to tack the jib through the small slot. Way down on my "someday" list I would like to add a removable inner forestay to my 23 so that I can hank on a small storm jib when the winds get too strong for my roller furling genoa, but I don't plan on sailing with both head sails up.

     If your primary concern is weather helm, adding a bowsprit and moving the sail plan forward would help with that, but a foiled (and balanced) rudder might help just as much (or more), and is easier to do.

Nate

[capt_nemo]

A few comments from a guy who has owned two large cutter rigged boats and has added a bowsprit to his Sun Cat, but not to counteract weatherhelm.

But, before I get started, I'd like to make a comment about the rudders. Several Sun Cat Owners have complained about what they call "excessive" weather helm. I on the other hand do not experience such weather helm. Cursed with being an engineer as well as an experienced sailor I can only attribute the diference to the fact that their RUDDERS ARE NOT IN THE FULLY DOWN (FORWARD) POSITION! It is not sufficient to simply release the tension lever, let the rudder ease down into the water, and retension the lever. You have to lean over the transom and physically push the rudder to its stop before retensioning the lever.

Recommend you 23 Owners check to make sure your rudder is going ALL THE WAY TO THE STOP. If not, make appropriate adjustments and check out under sail to feel the difference!

If the rudder isn't the problem then adding more sail area forward is the next step to move the Center of Effort forwad. A Bowsprit of some length would help accomplish this enabling larger foresails to be flown. A Staysail stay (inner forestay) would permit flying a Staysail with foresasil for a Pseudo, not true, Cutter Rig because the mast position is different on a true cutter rig. What you would have is a Double Headsail Rig on a Sloop. For maximum flexibility the inner forestay should have a quick release fitting  making it easier to use or lash aside to open up a larger foretriangle to facilitate tacking a larger headsail.

For simplicity and efficiency to deal with weatherhelm I would recommend a stepwise approach. First try a Bowsprit of some length (too long is better than too short) with current sail inventory.  Then, if necessary, try a larger headsail, borrowed or homemade of Polytarp, to see the affect on weatherhelm. Then try the inner (quickly removable) forestay with additional sail area.

My 4' Bowsprit was added to "Frisy" the Sun Cat to provide a platform to experiment and play with various headsails to improve performance in both light and moderate air.



Here is the homemade 3.3 oz Orange Polytarp Drifter which really helps in light air.



And here is the 4 oz Tan Polytarp Working Jib which adds additional "Drive" in moderate air and helps punch through a chop.



Have fun out there!

capt_nemo

[DougN]

Thanks for the feedback.My plan is to add a bowsprit,and I agree longer is better(it can always be shortened).My headsail is a 150 genoa on a roller furling,a removable innerstay does seem the way to go.My plan is to set it up and start to play around with it(film at 11).Don,I thought "Frisky"looked familar,then I remembered your post on North Carolina Sailboats.Your interior mods seemed well thought out and well executed,nice work.A foiled rudder has just been moved up the list.Today I start on building a type of stimson shed around the boat,since plan"A"(building a bigger garage)has been vetoed.This morning the river has started to ice over,so it's offical-winter is comming.

[Bob23]

I saw the Stimson shed in a recent Good Old Boat magazine...cool idea. Hope yours comes out just as well.
bob23

[DougN]

Bob,I found that article-Good Old Boat September/October 2012,lots of good info.The problem I'm having is that I need somthing a little less permanent,somthing I can take apart reassemble and recover when needed.The shape of the Stimson shed looks great,as to snow load.During my career(sheetmetal worker)I was in and out of auto plants all over the country and they use what they call "clean tunnels"that were frame work covered with plastic sheeting(I can't spell visquene??)that could be replaced as needed due to oil,dirt,overspray etc.Since every company/engineer had their own ideas I fabbed and installed a variety of different systems.I've also looked into portable garages,sheds and hoop-style green houses and they all had drawbacks-size,shape,cost.The answer is most likely a mixture of clean-tunnel,portable garage,shed and hoop-style greenhouse ,things just got complicated.I tried out the system yesterday I had planned on using but wasn't happy with the results,so I'll try somthing else.I guess what I'm trying to build is a portable-reusable spray-booth,I have projects down the road that help justify the time and cost.If I still had access to a shop and someone else's money this would be a piece of cake,but nobody said retirement would be easy.With the weather catching me if I can't work out the details I can always go with the wifes suggestion and"just put a stupid tarp over it like everyone else!"As always I'm open to suggestions.(still working on photos)