Need help with CP23 Cutter rig

[lochinvar]

As you might have surmised, I bought Davo's 1983 Compac 23 "Miss Penny". I hauled it from Oklahoma to Washington where it will set sail out of Olympia Washington and satisfy my wanderlust for a good while.

I have been playing with the cutter rig and finally have strung all the wires and pulled all them ropes. That is Okie talk for checking out the rigging and getting all the lines in place. Harrr.

Anyways, I have never owned a cutter rig and was wondering about the set of sails I have with her.

First the main: Does she look like I need a new one? See the pics below...


In this pic you can see a little of the stretch or a belly next to the boom. The luff and leech are stretched pretty tight. I could change the mast bend? Which of the rigging do you have to tighten/loose to help close up the belly on the sail? Would running a loose-footed main help/fix this problem?


Here is another:


and one more:

In this one you can see I have started taking off the "Miss Penny" name.

[lochinvar]

The main questions are about this cutter rig. I opened up all the sails and put them on. So you guys can remember, the rig has a 3ft bowsprit and a CDI FF2. When I un-furled the sail on that furler, it was about the size of a working jib for the regular stay, meaning no bowsprit as this is a 1983 CP23.

This means this is about a 70% (?) jib. I took out the staysail and it is a little bitty thing. Almost looks like it come off the CP16. Here is a pic:

So really the two sails (furler jib and staysail) meet up about 2ft short of the mast. Almost even. I was thinking that the staysail should be a little longer.
All this is asked out of ignorance, but in pics of sloops with furlers, you see genoas furled up so they can be used as a working jib size or unfurled all the way and enjoy a genoa experience.
I don't see that this furler is used to any advantage over a small hanked-on sail (with the regular jib on). I still don't know if these two sails (the regular jib on the furler and the "napkin-sized" staysail) are right for a good pulling cutter configuration. Isn't there some "slot effect" or something like that? Please slap me around or kick me in the rear and teach me the ways of the Jedi on this... AKA all comments constructive criticism appreciated.

[lochinvar]

I am still asking questions on this:
I pulled out the last sail that was supposed to be a spinnaker. It wasn't. It looks like a drifter and was for the furler. This is what it looked like:

Is this a drifter? If I use it won't it block the staysail?
It seems to be very light material except for the green sunbrella for furling it up. I had quite a tussle putting it on. The rotation was wrong and when you furled it, it would be the opposite "side" of the sun screen. I had to re-do all the furler lines and wrap the sail around the other way by hand. But I finally got it.
I am not crazy about the color, I am certainly not a "rainbow" type of guy... But the material is light on the sail. Should I run this one? leave the staysail off?
Your suggestions would be very much appreciated.
-Shawn F.

[Greene]

Can the original owner tell you what combinations he used?  I think that is the place to start.  I love the big multi-colored genoa.  Interesting that it gets installed on the furler. 

Regarding the mainsail condition.  It is always difficult to tell from pictures if the main is bagged out too much.  The "belly" you mentioned just above the boom is the extra material the sailmaker adds there (I've heard it referred to as the shelf.) to assist in sail shape.  The material certainly looks well used, but I'd at least take it out sailing and see if you what it looks like under sail.  It may just need a good cleaning.

Good luck figuring out all the sail combinations.  If we were going to keep Wrinkles we would be converter her to a cutter rig as well.

Mike and B

[DougN]

Swawn,I also have an'83 and am in the process of adding a bowsprit,so I don't have any answers for you but a lot of the same questions.My forestay will be out 27" farther with another attachment point at the original position.Tacking might be an issue.It will be set up about the same as yours,so I'll be anxiously watching your progess along with any suggestions.Now questions...Is your bob stay attached at the original bow eye(the later models are lower)?Do you have a picture fo your mast fitting for the baby stay?Thanks and good luck.Doug

[lochinvar]

Mike and B,
No help with the previous owner and to be fair on that - he didn't have it very long - he wasn't sure the genny was a genny - I am sure he looked in the bag, saw the colors and assumed (as I did) it was a spinnaker. I pulled it out, discovered it had luff tape and bent it on and there it is.
The PO he bought it from is deceased. He was the one that made the original conversion, all but putting on some of the bowsprit.

DougN,
Will take some bowsprit pics today and post them. So far I have discovered that you must furl and unfurl to tack with the bowsprit attached. I also put on a Idasailor foiled rudder first thing. As having not sailed it yet here, I am very anxious to get it on the water.

[lochinvar]

DougN here are some pics of the bowsprit:


This is the bobstay connection.


Upper bobstay connect along with bottom


Top of the bowsprit.

Hope this helps. Anyone who can help me with the sail configuration on this please pipe up. Thanks to all

[MacGyver]

I might be able to shed some light on it but the damn phone won't allow me to post the stuff I had.....
I will try to post later on the computer.

Mac

[MacGyver]

We have a similar rig setup at the marina on a C&C 30. (I am pretty sure that is what that boat is, I can look tomorrow if I remember)

Anyway, his babystay is a quick attach an can be used for more sail area. I have heard differing opinions on what can be done with all those different stays, but the big thing I here is increased slot effect.

This guy is a engineer and was fascinated with boats, so by the time he got to this boat he really had his stuff down pat. The boat is amazing looking, all different things he has done. I will ask him exactly his gains, and purposes when I see him next.

I have heard 2 ways of utilizing it, both I will try to double check on with my boss tomorrow who is also familiar with its uses and such.

The big issue you will have is when tacking, it is a bit of a headache, but you will get the hang of it. 
The reasoning for the multi color headsail is for 1) Flashiness, they do that for effect. Some have em cut in a way to highlight something specific as a color scheme, and some just for reason 2 which is for ease of sight. You are easily seen with multiple bright colors. Not exactly something you can miss.

Last year when sailing with Sailen69 on his Cat 22 we say a guy with a headsail that was red white and blue, and in the blue you could see the stars for the flag. They were arranged in a circle, and dont know how many, but with the sun behind it, it was amazing looking!

Belly of the sail is really like Greene said it, best checked under sail. Not really a question of mast rake necessarily. A old sail will have a bit of stretch in it. But I would probably use it till you get money for another set of sails, or need a new sail. This way you can have a extra (I like having extras.....) and can try for yourself to see the difference. Also on a crappy weather day, chang eback to the older sails so if you blow one out, no big deal when having it repaired, etc.

I will see what more Information I can get for you as far as that slot effect and such and will try to share the pictures with my boss who will most likely have more information than you can shake a stick at for you.

Mac

[Billy]

You will fing that most cutters only use their staysail in "upwind" conditions. But it looks like it is a perfect size & location to double as a storm jib.

I bet you will find the best combination is the multi color sail & stay sail are good for anything above a bean reach and the genoa alone anything below that.

In heavier winds you could go with just your standard jib and then if it really pics up switch to the stay sail.

play around. have fun. and go with what works best for you.

[capt_nemo]

lochinvar,

Having sailed 32' and 35' "Cutter Rigs" for many years I have a few comments to share.

Two headsails are most effectively used on a close reach and when close hauled. You may sometimes find possible use on a broad reach.

The multicolored "Jib" is more like a Genoa or Drifter and should be flown ALONE, without staysail. In fact, you should make the staysail stay "quick release" with a levered attachment fitting (available at West Marine and elsewhere) and move it out of the way, attaching it to shrouds or mast. This permits easy tacking of the forward headsail through the unobstructed slot! Believe me it works great.

To use 2 headsails, and for ease of tacking, consider a "Yankee" shaped forward jib. It is a little smaller in area and shaped to pass easily through the narrow slot between forestay and staysail stay when coming about.

Agree with previous comment that your staysail looks like the size of a storm jib, which is nice to have when the winds kick up. A new staysail COULD be made a little larger if desired. You can certainly use the current staysail ALONE as a working headsail in heavier winds along with a single reefed main to provide a balanced rig.

Remember to capitalize on the wonderful "versatility" of the "Cutter Rig"! Read about it, study it, experiment with it, and enjoy it. I certainly did. There was a time when I thought that all sailboats should have 2 headsail capability.

Hope this helps a little.

capt_nemo

[lochinvar]

All,
I so appreciate your help, input and insight. That is what a "collective" should do and this is the perfect example.

It looks like for the typical (lack of) winds here in Puget Sound area, I will use the multi-colored Genny on the furler. If I plan to cruise anywhere. I'll work with the others just for grins. I'll carry the staysail for a storm sail for now.

Also a previous comment somewhere on the site said that for downwind, you can fly staysail and jib wing and wing. That I can see is perfect for downwind scootin'.

I am getting a quick release when I can find one. They have a West Marine here in Olympia and I will go there and check tomorrow. 

I am sooo anxious to sail her and hope to be out before I have to go to Korea on assignment. Any more comments/suggestions welcome!

-Shawn F.

[DougN]

Shawn,thanks for the pics of your bowsprit.I've been wondering how to fit the anchor roller and forestay attachment with only 6" to work with.I like Davo's idea of using a bail on the anchor roller,so I'm going to "borrow"it.I was just doing the math to figure the the location for the forestay pin(I want to use the existing forestay)so your timing was perfect.I see your bobstay is attached at the original bow eye,I've been wondering about adding a dolphin striker to change the geometry but as always I'm probably over-thinking this whole project....Doug