What winds can she handle?

[MacGyver]

Yesterday we went out and it was really windy.
11 to 15 sustained and gusty to who knows what... ( co worker looked at a meter we have in the office and told me the 11 to 15)
So we reefed the main and ventured out. Sailed downwind with reef. No headsail. And really felt sluggish.
So we shook the reef out. Started going really well.
We decided to turn around and sail with the wind at our port side. Sailing a beam/close reach. Im still  skiddish yet but did okay for abit until the gust sped her up a lot with some heeling i got a bit scared i guess.

All i kept thinking was back to all of this different info from people saying what their boats do and none are compac 19s here that i talk to. More catalina 28 etc types.

So what kinds of winds warrant reefing? Headsail winds? Etc.
I need a baseline so i can work at it a little better. I like experimenting but i also dont feel like blowing a sail out or anything like that.......or hell even breaking stuff if i can keep from it.
Id rather be safe.


Thanks!
Mac

[Shawn]

Mac,

"So we reefed the main and ventured out. Sailed downwind with reef. No headsail. And really felt sluggish."

It would be, try reefed with the headsail out. What size headsail do you have?

"Id rather be safe."

Always a good way to start. This is my third year with the 23 (had a Flying Scot before it) and this is the year I'm really feeling comfortable with the 23.

Do you have an inclinometer in your boat? It might be part of a built in compass. If not get one.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=11239&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50045&subdeptNum=50103&classNum=50107#.UAlhlr8R7fU

What you will find is as you are starting out and getting nervous about the heel you will see it is likely very mild.

"like experimenting but i also dont feel like blowing a sail out or anything like that.......or hell even breaking stuff if i can keep from it."

In that speed wind you won't. One of the first things to do is when you start feeling the boat heel is to let go of the tiller and see how she reacts. You will find the boat will head up and point into the wind and basically stop. It may happen somewhat quickly and the sails will be flapping but it is always good to understand that this is what will happen.

Another important thing to understand is that as the boat heels more you are spilling more wind out of the top of the sail. The more you heel the less power the sail is developing, while on the flip side the more you heel the more the weight of the keel is acting as a lever to keep the boat upright. Likewise the lower the sail is to the water the less it acts as a level. That is part of why reefing the main helps to reduce heel.


As far as wind speeds on a 23 (which heels more than the 19) I'd put the first reef in around 12 or 15 knots sustained wind. If it is very gusty I might reef earlier or just be vigilant about reading the puffs and heading up or letting out sail to deal with it. Would sort of depending upon if the nervous wife was with me or not. By around 18 or 20 knots sustained I'd like go to the double reef in the main and see how it was handling it. If the boat wasn't balanced I'd put up the smaller 60% jib.

Last year I went out in a small craft advisory with just a small 60% jib up (and the nervous wife and kids) and the boat handled really well. Was doing 4+ knots and I was even able to tack by backwinding the jib.

Another time I went out with my father in what we think were 20-25+ winds with stronger gusts. We were double reefed with the 60% jib up and it was like a walk in the park. Boat was extremely well balanced, minimal heel (maybe 5 degrees), almost at hull speed and very easily controlled. Other boats (with all sail up) were broachng and rounding up all over the place.

One of the things I want to try out this year is using the 130% more. I've seen some posts talking about how well that can work with a single or even double reefed main. It makes some sense since the added sail size is lower down and it will help to keep power in the reefed (lower) main.

Couple of other points...

If you think it is time to reef, it is.

Stay within your comfort zone, as you sail more that zone will get larger.

When sailing close hauled experiment with dealing with the puffs by just using the tiller (heading up) and then by just using the mainsheet.

On a day you want to experiment a little more close up the cabin completely... all portholes closed, hatch boards in and hatch closed. if you keep the water out of the cabin the boat will float. This is a again just for your peace of mind.  If you ever heel far enough to take water into the cockpit (and you have to go over far to do that) it will simply drain back out again.

Have fun!

Shawn

[kickingbug1]

jason, we have sailed our 16 in 18 sustained without a reef and with the jib with no problems. she will heel quite a bit maybe 17 degrees or so but was never overpowered. thats the way the crew likes it. having sailed on a 19 on carlyle lake it is doubtful if you will ever be overpowered but i have to say if you have reef points (i dont) by all means take in a reef if you are unsure. as you gain more experience and confidence the heeling wont be an issue. on the plus side the 19 doesnt heel much at all being a flat bottom hull

[Lafayette Bruce]

Jason
My 19 sails at best speed at about 15 degrees heel.  If I am up over 15 much, it is time to reef and this is with winds above about 15mph which is also about where white caps start.  I typically reef the furled headsail first because it is quick and easy.
If you think you may need to reef, do so before leaving the marina.  Much easier to shake it out under way than to put one in under way.
Lafayette Bruce

[skip1930]

60 knots, hail, motoring full on into the wind and still being pushed back about 1/4 mile. You see I started 1/4 mile past the breakwater at the Marinette Menominee river and the storm front hit me. And I ened up equal to the breakwater after the storm went by. Bare poled into the hail that left welts right through me heavy weather sailing jacket on my extended arm and neck as I hung onto the tiller and huddled behind the cabin's bulkhead best I could. Could not see five foot in front of my eyes, couldn't see the bow of my CP-19 but relied on my Raymarine 435i chartplotter to keep an eye on the breakwater rocks, and the shallows on either side of the river's exit into the bay of Green Bay. Fifteen minutes later, the sun popped out as she slipped into the Marinette Menominee harbor but my wafer must have wetted enough to inflate my self inflating PFD...instant 'Dolly Parton! Luckily the PFD was on the outside of my sailing Henri LLoyd jacket.

I docked on the wall, put on dried clothes, and had a delicious dead cow dinner and adult beverages at Berg's Anchor Landing. Slept like a baby.

Now as far as wind, 50 mph will have her harmlessly but uncomfortable rounding up. The CP-19 sails fastest when flat up right. But gives the illusion of speed when heeled over a bit. This is a very hard hull shape to slow down. It coasts very well. I always come to a complete stop when docking and just 'in-gear, outta-gear' to nudge her up the the dock. Your not going to roll the thing over before rounding up. Reduce power and reef.

skip.

[Salty19]

Jason,

The CP19 can handle more than you, I, and 99% of the users of the boat.

First thing, you gotta get over thinking you could tip the boat over and be more confident that the boat will take care of you.  I've sailed Carlyle..trust me you're not going to flip it over there.

Let it heel like monohulls are supposed to.  When water comes up to within 10" of the rub rail...that's your point where you want to reef or reduce sheet pressure.  Anytime before that it's more psychological than safety. Now those gusts are a pain so very to keep and eye out for them coming and be ready to turn into them or reduce sheet pressure as they hit.  This is part of the "sport" of sailing, and your boat is among the most stable in her size.  Having started on a racing dinghy-wildly unstable and extremely fast, maybe that "broke me in" so to speak and the heeling isn't a big deal?  See if you can sail one sometime. The 19 will feel like the Queen Mary in comparison.

Learn more about sail trimming in stronger winds, don't be afraid to keep a hand on the mainsheet to reduce pressure and let the jib run less than optimal if you're overpowered.
Or as mentioned-whenever you feel the need. No shame in reefing, and since your just getting started by all means don't be afraid to reef.
My rule of thumb of is when stuff slides across the cockpit from heel, it's time to reef.

I think I remember you saying your sails are original.  Old sails will push the boat more sideways then newer ones. But even with new sails it's still going to heel.

[frank]

Remember the oe saying...."when in doubt...let out"     Play with the main sheet-releasing somewhat in the gusts. When you see how easy it is to depower the main...you'll gain confidance. Fun too  ;-)

[skip1930]

In strong winds if you don't want to denude the pole of its sail, or just to stop and let it pass one might try heaving too.

Let out the main sheet all the way, let the jib backfill, and remember to point the end of the tiller toward the end of the boom. Lash it there if need be.

That's if you have enough seaway to drift about for a while.

What's with the smiley faces in the line above the post box? skip.

[Salty19]

What's with the smiley faces in the line above the post box? skip.

Those are called "Emoticons" and it's a new forum feature.  Just click on one to paste in your post for a more expressive reply.