Motor Size to Sail on Lake Erie

[Pacman]

had to constantly work the two in parallel when backing out of the slip, a pain. 

Yes, but when you practice a bit you will be surprised at how well you can maneuver in close quarters by using both the rudder and the motor. 

The rudder not only helps with directional control and turning:  It can also have the effect of concentrating and directing the thrust of the outboard. 

Using that technique, alternating between forward and reverse, I could "spin" my Catalina 22 in place.

This been useful crowded boat basins and while docking against the wind and/or current.

Most motor boats can't do that because they don't have a rudder to work in concert with their outboard and most sailors don't spend much time on close quarters maneuvering under power.

I recommend a book titled Easy On The Helm which was written for powerboaters but is equally applicable to sailors.

[WillametteSailor]

Looking at the "Com-Pac Yacht Owners Handbook," it says:

"COM-PACS have displacement hulls, so increasing the maximum recommended horsepower will not significantly increase the speed your boat will attain.  Larger horse power motors will only be a higher initial investment and add unnecessary weight to your boat that could adversely affect its trim and performance."

And:

"COM-PAC 16: A motor of 3 to 4 H.P. with a standard length shaft is recommended."

I think the manufacture knows whats best for the boats they have been making for decades.

[Pacman]

By now most members here know that I am not a fan of big motors on small boats and I generally agree with the Com-Pac recommendation (I have a Honda 2 HP on my C-16), but I will admit that there is a case for more power - under certain conditions:

A 3 HP motor will easily push a C-16 at hull speed on calm water and more power is usually results in more noise but not much more speed so it is wasted. 

This is because the hydrodynamic forces acting on this displacement hull are such that a lot more power is required to increase speed much above hull speed through the water.

However, if you are powering against a strong headwind at well below hull speed through the water, more power may get you up to hull speed because the wind acting on the hull and rig are what is slowing your progress.

My approach is to sail if there is wind and power only when there is not enough wind to sail so, for me, 2 HP is just fine because, if it is blowing hard, I will reef and keep on sailing.

If you are not comfortable sailing in stronger winds, a larger than recommended motor might help if you have to go against the wind to get where you want to go.

The down side is that you will have a heavy lump hanging on the stern and slowing your boat all the time - so you can power rather than sail when the wind is blowing.

[JBC]

Pacman, thanks for the tips and resource on backing boats.  Actually, I usually have no problem when backing my 24' Venture out of its slip, because that boat has a motor with reverse, making it easy to adjust the motor's position and then simply handling the rudder's tiller while backing up.  But when I use my 2.5 on my ComPac 16, a motor that's designed to rotate easily through 180 degrees and a tiller that has to flip back toward the helmsman, I find I have to use both the motor's tiller and the rudder's at the same time, assuming the blade's also in the water, because that small motor won't otherwise stay in position while backing.

There are, of course, swivel tension controls on all outboards, but it's not too easy to readjust that on a motor designed to swivel 180 while moving backwards, IMO!

Jett

[Bob23]

   I have occasions where I need to motor in a very narrow channel into an opposing tide and headwind. Tacking is out of the question when the channel is only 200 feet wide. I can certainly do it but I'd me making little or no or negative headway under those conditions. I appreciate the extra power of my Nissan 8 2 stroke when I need it.
   Under normal conditions, at about 1/4 to 1/3 throttle she'll hit hull speed.
Bob23

[skip1930]

Yes one can turn her 360 in her own length from a dead stop using rudder and outboard in a coordinated fashion by using fwd and reverse gears.
Any motor that can yield calculated hull speed + a few knots more will do for any body of water be it harbor or open lake.

I have been blown off the top of waves and dropped into the trough 'tween the waves and crawled my way back up to the top only to be blown off again with a two stroke 5 hp Mercury on my CP-19. But than again the wind was 60 mph and I was making for a harbor of refuge at the Quarry park on the bay of Green Bay where I bivouacked over night. I even had to move the boat three times till a quite spot was found in the harbor. From then on it was a restful night.

Consider that it took four hours to make the trip that usually is done in 45 minutes under power....fuel...1/3 to destination, 1/3 to get back, 1/3 in reserve.

skip.

[JJ]

Hi All!........  And again thanks for all of your wonderful responses.......Sorry about not responding sooner.  Been a busy weekend here and this is the first time I have had a chance to check this post.  

I did purchase the Yamaha 6 hp long shaft Saturday, and must say that when it was tested in the water tank that it started on the first pull and ran very quietly and smoothly.  I did purchase this motor at a dealer in Jamestown, Pa. about 60 miles east of Cleveland as this was the nearest and only dealer that had this motor.  Jamestown is located just over the border of Ohio on Pymatuning Lake (one of OH and PA largest inland lake) which borders OH. and PA.  It was a beautiful day with perfect sailing weather and would have been a great day to try out the new motor had I towed my sail boat along.  It had been a while since I had been to Pymatuning Lake and I forgot how beautiful this 10 mile long lake was.  Though we didn't get to sail we did have a wonderful drive around the whole lake and even checked out the ramps and campgrounds for a future sailing/camping outing!  

Can't wait to take out our new motor for a spin on Lake Erie, but will have to wait until Wednesday as there is a small craft advisory on Lake Erie for Monday and Tuesday.  With waves in the 3 to 5 foot range and winds 10 to 20 knots, gusting to 30, I will have to wait it out before I get to test my new motor.  I may try one of the inland lakes!   For those of you who have never sailed LE, it can be rather treacherous with the wind and the weather changing in a minute notice.   So I feel that I made a good choice from all the recommendations on selecting this motor.  Will let you know about the performance of the new motor at a later date!

And Wolverine................I have been to Sterling State Park as I have several cousins that live in nearby Flat Rock.  

I live 15 miles east of Cleveland and about a mile from LE,  I normally trailer my boat to the 72ND street ramp at Cleveland State Park in downtown Cleveland.  It has a break wall that separates the harbor from LE.  It runs about 10 miles long and is a great place to sail when you can't sail the open waters of LE.  I also sailed several times last year after I got my boat in Sandusky Bay.  Sandusky Bay is a great place to sail as it is protect from the open waters of LE if the conditions are not good to sail on the Lake.  Kelley's Island and Putin Bay are also an easy sail from the  bay.  I too am a relatively new sailor so I am very cautious when I take out my boat.

Best Regards to All

JJ

[Rob]

This post had my son and I thinking , So what we did was go to the Marina with a GPS and a 3.3 hp f/n Mercury short shaft and a 6 hp yacht twin with F/N/R long shaft.What we found was best speed is about 5 kts .Mercury was at a little less than 1/2 throttle about the same for the yacth twin. The big differance in in handleing its alot easier to swing the mercury around 180 or to the side to control the boat with the rudder up  .The boat will turn around in its own length. The Yachtwin did a much larger turn because of the turn stops even using the rudder to help .What we found after playing with the motors was the Mercury was easier to handle and gave good control just point the way you want to go. The yacthtwin reached hull speed faster but even with that brings another question is it the HP or the long shaft?   Rob

[Pacman]

The yacthtwin reached hull speed faster but even with that brings another question is it the HP or the long shaft?

The difference might be related to propeller type and pitch. 

The Yacht Twin might have a larger propeller with a flatter pitch.

If so, that could explain the difference.

[Bill CP16 2250]

I have a short shaft Mercury 4 stroke.  Sailed on LE many times, typically Lakeside Marblehead western basin.  I like the Mazurik ramp, steep, easy to launch, plenty of parking.  4 hp is more than enough power.  I don't like to trailer my CP16 with motor on the mount, it puts as a lot of stress on the transom.  The short shaft has not been a problem even in heavy air with plenty of heel.  I've toyed with trimming the plywood motor mount a couple of inches to get the prop a little deeper.