Compac 16: soil ballast revisited

[Citroen/Dave]

Hi all,

As posted elsewhere, I am considering purchasing a very inexpensive C 16 that has had tiny deck leaks.  Sitting on a trailer for more than three years, water has made its way to the bilge.  Freeze thaw cycles, through the winters is has stood on the trailer, has caused the saturated concrete to be reduced to a soil like consistency.  Freeze thaw cycles have pulverized the concrete. I have extracted 4 inches of soil like material with no signs of improvement with depth.  This phenomena could be the death spiral for older boats unless the bilge is watched and always air dried should the bilge ever be found wet.

My other problem is that my Rav 4 four cylinder SUV has a weight restriction for towing of 1000lbs.

I propose removing all or most of the concrete and replacing it with either iron or lead pigs.

Has anyone tried this?  By lowering a denser weight, the same righting moment can be maintained as provided by the original column of concrete. At a lower elevation less weight is needed. Perhaps I could shave off 200 or more lbs, making the boat easier to trailer and making a faster boat.

Certainly, the factory made calculations as to how much lead could have been used in the keel, which would also have provided a better shaped keel.  Concrete kept the cost of production down but we could still wish for and produce a lead keel.

Elsewhere at the marina, another C16 sits with flat tires on the trailer.  It's keel has been breached by internal expansion (freezing) and a stalactite has formed beneath the crack in the keel from calcium carbonate leached from the concrete.  Its keel is visibly distorted from the internal pressure not external impact.

Has any body else have thought on these two items other than pouring a layer of Fiberglas resin to seal the loose soil-like concrete (which keeps in the water)? And overstressing an automatic transmition?

Thanks,
Dave Woolley

[Bob23]

Well, first Dave,
   Turn off our overdrive while trailering your 16. I have a Tundra and tow a Compac 23 as well as my 7' x 16' construction trailer with no problems. You could always install an additional trans cooler as well.
   Your idea about replacing the ballast material with lead or iron is interesting. Not being an engineer, I'd advise keeping the ballast weight the same but it would all be down lower. You could have one of the fastest 16's out there. I would contact Rich or Gerry at Hutchins...they are incredibly helpful and knowledgable.
bob23

[millsy]

Dave,

I did something similar with the ballast situation.  After chopping out all the original concrete to repair the keel (holed/demaniated) on my C-23, I replaced this with 400 lbs of lead pigs and the remaining 600 lbs with agm batteries (used, from a decommissioned elevator back-up system) for my electric aux drive.  I placed all the lead pigs in the lower end of the keel cavity , sealed these with a resin slurry, fitted a heavy plywood panel over this and then heavily glassed over it.  Over top of this I built a water tight battery compartment (the agm batts are secured on-end).

I was concerned that the original lamination schedule of the keel was too thin to support all of this without the concrete, so I increased the shell thickness 3 times up into the turn of the bilge, added a transverse floor about halfway down the keel cavity, replaced the stringers/settee fronts with thicker plywood (glassed in with fabmatt), and added additional transversals below each settee.  Of course things progressed from there into new bulkheads, glassing the hull/deck joint inside etc.

OK so I have a boat building background.  I also have good-natured neighbors (many elderly/ hard of hearing), who did not compain too much about the whine of the compressor, grinders, the noise of the jackhammer, or even about the odor of fresh resin or awlgrip!  I would be the first to admit that this is not necessarily a practical project from a cost standpoint but what the heck, I enjoy this sort of thing.

Can't say how this would improve the performance of your 16 (or not) but I would like to think that my boat has a better righting moment because of the lead down low (this is pure speculation on my part).  I'm not sure how my re-ballasted boat would chalk up against another C-23 head to head- never had the opportunity to try this-and as you can imagine my boat budget is way beyond busted so I still have a set of tired old sails! 

Chris
C-23 Dolce

[Salty19]

Dave,

First off...welcome to the forum!   The advice given is good here.  I'll add $.03..marked up due to inflation. Lots of things you need to address.

The tow weight will be technically iffy.  Standard boat is 1100lbs. The trailer is probably in the 460lb range.Add other stuff on board. And remember no published weight is over correct.. The real tow weight of a CP16 is about 1600 lbs if you don't load it down too much.  On one hand..my opinion is your Rav4 can probably handle it w/o overdrive and driving slow/cautiously keeping careful about braking distance, hitch weight and speed.  Toyotas are overbuilt. Problem is the insurance man may not cover you- overloading the rating capacity should you have an accident. Liability could be a problem. Check you policy. Pulling the boat shouldn't be a problem it's stopping and control that will be a little taxed (probably moreso braking). One can be very careful..it's the idiot who stops or pulls out in front of you. 

On the ballast issue, I'm happy to help you out on the calculations IF you can get me some really good measurements.  Couple of years back I posted the difference in righting force between 450 lbs of lead and concrete using the basic lever formula with the waterline as fulcrum (estimating the measurements).  54% better right force with lead--because it was denser of course and lower, multiplying the righting forces.  Huge difference! The figures show the estimate is 280.3 lbs of lead, laid low and even like the concrete to equal the same righting force as 450 lbs of concrete.  Now don't use this number...it's based on estimates but gives you a rough idea of things. That's tough to do as you can't hot pour the keel and there will be spaces with pigs. But you could probably use pigs and different sizes of shot and epoxy them in layer by layer.  And adding a little more would help stability and still reduce weight.  On the 16 you'll want to keep ballast out of the aftmost portion of the keel, she'll sit on her lines better. How much area to leave ballast out, I don't know but could probably help if you buy it.

If you are looking for a project boat, go for it but keep in mind of the costs of restoration vs a boat in good condition and repair.

[Citroen/Dave]

Thanks, Bob, Chris, and "Salty Captian", for you thoughts, experience, and advice. 

It did not occur to me that the Com-Pac 23 used the same less desirable concrete ballast and possibly in other boats.  Did they ever seal in the concrete or should the problem I identified be on everyone's watch list?  Any such boat stored in air in norther climates must take this potential problem seriously.  I will try to post photos of the destroyed keel, C 16, with stalactite later this week.

My guess is that at some depth, on "my" C16, I will find sound concrete in the keel.  If so that will resolve some of the strength of the Fiberglass shell issue: I will add some iron or lead and cap it with a layer of Fiberglass.  I will run a dehumidifier for a while to remove residual moisture before starting any repairs!  I will follow by filling the remaining cavity with expanding foam insulation, the kind that has some structural strength, to gain some on the floation issue.

If the concrete is gone I will clean the hole and add three layers of glass lapped up at least partially from the bottom of the keel before adding weight, to strengthen the keel needed after the removal of the support provided by the concrete.

I will take the mast off before any activity: floating an empty boat before and after concrete removal would give me a waterline to match if replacement weight was the goal.  Since weight replacement is not the goal, I will place maybe a "standard" 200 lbs on the deck, amid ship, (and pencil its exact location so I can replace the weight at that exact location) and draw a waterline mark to the where the righting moment was with the 450 lbs of concrete.  I will relaunch the boat with at least 200-300lbs at the bottom of the keel to prevent capsize and match the "standard" 200 lbs on the deck mark.  Adding or removing the ballast pieces then will establish the same righting moment as the 450 lbs of concrete, since removed.

I agree from other post that a forward bias may help keep the C16 from its tail dragging tendency, and provide a better center of sail driving force location.  I still anticipate gaining maybe 200 to 250 extra lbs of floation which also will yield a slight lowering of wetted surface.  I would imagine that the gain in boat speed and handling will be more psychological than actual but the satisfaction of saving a C16 and making it mine will be a real speed head-trip.

I recently retired and don't at the moment have a Citroen to take up my time.  I have owned 13 and have published a definitive article on the automobile titled "Back to the Future" in four quarterly issues of the Citroen Car Club of Canada magizine which is free on line. If you should ever wonder where most of the ideas came from found in the modern car you should look this up.  The last feature found on the 1955-75 DS19-23 Citroens, now mandated by the feds for 2012, is "electronic stability control" accomplished by good design and hydraulics on the 55 Cit. I can email anyone a copy if you ask at: woolley.dave@gmail.com.  I am also involved with faceting gem: do a google search for "The Beale/Woolley Depth of Cut Indicator" for a really neat invention.

Back to the C16: I still have not decided to purchase this boat. I expect to take a hard look at the Legacy before I do.  Next week I check out a Canal Barge for sale: I might do the upper part of the great loop in summers to come with my sweet heart and cats. . .  I still want a local sail boat for the kids and grandkids to share.

Best regards to all,
Dave Woolley

[Bob23]

Dave:
  I was gonna ask you if you owned a Citroen but decided not to hijack the thread. In the early 70's I worked in a foreign car shop servicing mostly VW's, British cars, Volvos, Mercedes, etc. Toyotas and Datsuns were kinda young back then and not the great cars that they are today.
I remember having to a engine not running diagnosis on one of these:

and remarking "What a piece of s___!" Guess I called that one wrong, eh?
  We had a few Citroens came in and, although not a fan of French cars, I did marvel at it's design. I bet it had a drag coeffiecent low enough to make most modern cars jealous. And a very fitting car to appear in "Back to the Future 2"!
  Youv'e got me a bit nervous about the concrete in my 1985 23/2. I may leave the cabin sole intack and remain in ignorant bliss...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My boat has been dry and well cared for.
Bob23
 

[zimco]

HI CHRIS,

DID YOU GAIN HEADROOM BY SWITCHING FROM CONCRETE TO LEAD IN THE KEEL?

HOW LONG DID IT TAKE TO REMOVE THE CONCRETE?  ANY SPECIAL DIFFICULTIES?

THANKS
LON
CP23 - PRUDENCE

===================

Dave,

I did something similar with the ballast situation.  After chopping out all the original concrete to repair the keel (holed/demaniated) on my C-23, I replaced this with 400 lbs of lead pigs and the remaining 600 lbs with agm batteries (used, from a decommissioned elevator back-up system) for my electric aux drive.  I placed all the lead pigs in the lower end of the keel cavity , sealed these with a resin slurry, fitted a heavy plywood panel over this and then heavily glassed over it.  Over top of this I built a water tight battery compartment (the agm batts are secured on-end).

I was concerned that the original lamination schedule of the keel was too thin to support all of this without the concrete, so I increased the shell thickness 3 times up into the turn of the bilge, added a transverse floor about halfway down the keel cavity, replaced the stringers/settee fronts with thicker plywood (glassed in with fabmatt), and added additional transversals below each settee.  Of course things progressed from there into new bulkheads, glassing the hull/deck joint inside etc.

OK so I have a boat building background.  I also have good-natured neighbors (many elderly/ hard of hearing), who did not compain too much about the whine of the compressor, grinders, the noise of the jackhammer, or even about the odor of fresh resin or awlgrip!  I would be the first to admit that this is not necessarily a practical project from a cost standpoint but what the heck, I enjoy this sort of thing.

Can't say how this would improve the performance of your 16 (or not) but I would like to think that my boat has a better righting moment because of the lead down low (this is pure speculation on my part).  I'm not sure how my re-ballasted boat would chalk up against another C-23 head to head- never had the opportunity to try this-and as you can imagine my boat budget is way beyond busted so I still have a set of tired old sails! 

Chris
C-23 Dolce

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