What is the fastest Com-Pac?

[Billy]

Just thinking about this. would it come down to length? the longer the faster. or could the 19 be faster than the 23? They do have different hulls.

excluding the 27 & 35 what do you guys think? Cats included. and obviously some boats may be faster than others on certain points of sail and slower on others. And in light wind verse heavy wind.

I am reminded of Gerry's quote when discussing my boat, "the 19 is no slouch, I always liked that boat!" Maybe my bias towards my 19 made it seem like Gerry was a bit partial to the 19s as well.

thought this topic could turn into a pretty good discussion.

I'll hang up and listen.

[Salty19]

I'm thinking the 19 is not the fastest.  Stories of 23 owners going 6.6--6.8 knots tell me it's a bit faster than a 19.

Mid-5 knot range is fast on the 19.  Been able to go a little quicker in spurts but that is rare. 5.9 knots once.  Granted I don't check speed all the time.  This is with foiled rudder, new sails, 140% genny and a well setup rig.

Even motoring with a strong 8hp Yamaha, I can't exceed more than about 6.1 knots at full throttle in calm water/wind.

[kickingbug1]

    mike and mike, best we ever did was 6.1 knots. that was the monday before you guys left. if i  can get her to heal to 15 or 17 degrees with good wind. a big factor is wave action at least with my little boat,

[Shawn]

As far as continuous top speed (not surfing on a wave) since none are planning hulls it will come down to hull speed. The longer you are the faster you are provided you have enough wind to drive you to hull speed.

Shawn

[Billy]

As far as continuous top speed (not surfing on a wave) since none are planning hulls it will come down to hull speed. The longer you are the faster you are provided you have enough wind to drive you to hull speed.

Shawn

That is kinda what I was thinking, which is why I said excluding the 27 and 35. However, the 19 is a completely different hull than the 23 (and 16). And same goes for all the cat boats and the eclipse.  So this theory would apply to a 16 and 23 but not the entire CP line. Also, I bet the 16 might be faster than the 23 in light air as it is much lighter.

[Shawn]

"which is why I said excluding the 27 and 35. However, the 19 is a completely different hull than the 23 (and 16)."

Doesn't matter, it is still a displacement hull. Therefor the top speed is limited by its waterline length which is shorter then the 23s.

"And same goes for all the cat boats and the eclipse."

Not as far as top speed unless you are a planning hull.

"Also, I bet the 16 might be faster than the 23 in light air as it is much lighter."

Light air you want to look at sail area vs. displacement. True the 16 is *much* lighter but also by ratio has less sail area per pound. Per sailboatdata.com the 16 is 14.14, the 23 is 16.90. Higher is better for light air performance. A 23 is more likely to be more loaded down by an owner which will change that ratio of course. And if one has a drifter or spinnaker for light air that will dramatically change those ratios too.

Shawn

[skip1930]

What is the fastest Com-Pac?


The skinniest hull with the longest waterline?

The 19 sails fastest when not heeled over, thanks NASA for the use the computers and test facilities.

skip.

Opps! I to am disapointed to hear this--> "Skip, I asked Gerry about the "NASA" design and he corrected me saying it was "NACA" not the space agency. And all that it meant was it has a foiled keel. I was a little disappointed to hear that as I had thought had been riding on a space shuttle. Bob Johnson designed the hull not the engineers on the east coast."

I'm bummed and dumb. Pissed at myself too.

skip.

[Joseph]

My SunCat has been timed at 70 mi/hr... on the highway... but this, without considering the speed of the Earth around the Sun, the Sun's around Sgr A* and our Galaxie's towards The Great Attractor...

J.

[Billy]

Shawn, I hear what you are saying, but I gotta believe that it is more than just about a lenght of waterline. A 40 Benateau will run circles around a 40 Island packet. Not all displacement hulls are created equal. I would even take a 36' Benateau over a 45' IP. My work has a 36' Catalina, a 30, and a bunch of 27s. And there is one 27 that is the fastest because it has a fin keel and different hull design while all the others have wing keels and are much heavier. I do agree about sail area though, which goes into my original question. Don't those cats have a lot more sail?

Skip,
I asked Gerry about the "NASA" design and he corrected me saying it was "NACA" not the space agency. And all that it meant was it has a foiled keel. I was a little disappointed to hear that as I had thought had been riding on a space shuttle. Bob Johnson designed the hull not the engineers on the east coast.

[Shawn]

"but I gotta believe that it is more than just about a lenght of waterline. A 40 Benateau will run circles around a 40 Island packet. Not all displacement hulls are created equal."

If you are talking maximum top speed it is all about water line length except for planning hulls. So what is the fastest compac (with no qualifications) the fastest is simply the longest.

If you add in pointing ability, fastest in X knots of wind, acceleration, speed through a tack and all those other qualifications then things like hull shape, rig layout, sail area...etc..etc..etc.. all have an influence on how they perform.

If you have enough wind then top speed is simply hull speed. Hull speed is all water line length. Take the square root of the water line length and multiply by 1.34.

Shawn

[Bob23]

Fastest Compac? Simple- Mine! And next spring when we have the 2012 Spring Tice's Shoals Rondayvoo, I'll challenge anyone to a race. It's all fun, of course.
This has been an interesting thread.
Bob23   zoom zoom

[Tom Ray]

The interesting comparison to me would be 16/Legacy vs Sun Cat and 19/Eclipse vs Horizon Cat.

I have sailed all of the above, though only the modern versions. Never sailed an old 16 or 19. The cats love to reach and run, and the sloops would not stand a chance, unless we're talking about a spinnaker-equipped Eclipse. Upwind, I would expect the sloops to outpoint the cats.

The best in very light wind is a lightly loaded Picnic Cat.

The fastest Sun Cat, of course, is mine, as shown in last year's Sun Cat Nationals. We'll see if I can hold on to my crown again in November!

[brackish]

Shawn is right within the Com-Pac family, longer is faster.  PHRF which attempts to determine the relative performance of boats so that races that are not one design can take place is a good indicator.  PHRF determines what boat has to give or receive time relative to their design performance potential.  It takes into consideration performance on all points of sail.  So if you look at the Com-Pac family you will see longer is faster (the higher the number the slower the boat).  To determine how two boats do relative to each other in a race you give the difference in the PHRF's in seconds per mile to the slower boat by subtracting that from their finish time and the lowest adjusted time is the winner even though they may have crossed the finish line later.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/PHRF/High+Low+Mean+PHRF+Handicaps.pdf

But, Billy that does not mean that a shorter boat cannot perform better than a longer boat, (your example), there are many examples of that on the PHRF handicapping chart, however, within the Com-Pac family it is not the case.

And I believe that Capt. Nemo may have the fastest Suncat, however, I would have to disqualify him for using sails that are not class approved.

[capt_nemo]

This year for the "race" any and all modifications are allowed as long as the hull is a Sun Cat.

Should prove quite interesting with my little orange home made Nylon Drifter in light to moderate winds.



And, if the winds are as light as they were last year (almost non existent) my home made light air Nylon Mainsail should blow them all away!




capt_nemo

[Tom Ray]

Don is not the only one taking the unlimited development of the Sun Cat Class seriously. Scott is bringing his big sail too this time around.

If Murphy's laws are functioning normally, the big sails that would have easily won last year's driftathon will be useless due to gale force winds and we'll all be reefed down.

I'm hoping for favorable winds for the extra sail area because I really want to see how they do!