Possible new owner, depending on the answer to these questions....

[buckaroo]

Hi, everyone -- this is my first post, as I haven't yet purchased a CP16, but am looking at one I am seriously considering making an offer for.  The boat has been in the water for two years, pretty much neglected, so as would be expected there are some issues that I could use input on.  It's a '94 16/3.

The owner pulled it out of the water today, and it had two years worth of crud on it, He cleaned most of it off (no pressurewash, yet) and surprisingly (to me, anyway) there was no no obvious blistering or keel problems.  There was, however, lots of pitting of the gelcoat under the waterline -- little black spots  about 1-2 mm in size, that didn't seem to penetrate deeply into the gelcoat.  I doubt it's anything to worry about (I expect to immediately have to paint, anyway) but I thought I'd check here anyway.  Any thoughts?

The bigger issue is the mast step -- The pivot bolt threads were rusted and seized (it'll need to be cut off and replaced), so the owner unscrewed the tabernacle to unstep the mast, and found a big chunk of gelcoat flaked up. The screwhole underneath looked like it had deteriorated away.  I expect similar crudiness around the other holes, but I didn't want to pull that up as it's still his boat. I take it it would be a pretty straightforward repair, but can anyone enlighten me on the structure that lies underneath?  I know it's glass/plywood, but does the plywood depth extend the full thickness of the "hump" of the step? Do the screws extend all the way into the compression post?  What is the precise structure of the sandwich? (E.g. glass/plywood/glass/liner/compression post?)  Here's a photo:
There's also a little bit of water damage at the base of the buklhead, where the plywood there has rotted/delaminated.  At some point if I buy the boat I'd want to replace/repair this wood -- how difficult is it to remove?   For that matter, how difficult is the plastic headliner, if I want to do repairs from inside the boat?

A photo of one side (it's pretty much the same on the other):


Also, there's some crazing around a cleat, which I take to mean that it needs a backing plate, and refinishing:


... and pretty much all the exterior wood will need to be refinished, with much of it probably replaced.  The bowsprit wood, for example, seems to be rotting underneath.

And, finally, the most important question of all:  How much should all this impact my offer price?

I've posted some more photos as well, at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elmer_mccurdy/sets/72157625363164325/  If y'all could have a look, I'd appreciate comments.  Thanks!  Here's hoping I'll be a regular poster soon...

[Bob23]

Hey Buckaroo!
  Welcome! It seems like the 16 has a few issues but none are a deal breaker. It does allow you to negotiate down. I'm not familiar with the 16 resale prices but there is a small army of 16 guys here who will no doubt be able to help.
  As far as the bulkhead, looks like water lay in the boat for a while. I can't imagine that this is too hard to fix.
   Looks like someone put a real load on that port side stern cleat. I'm sure it's fixable if you're good with glass.
  What is the guy asking? Hope you become a regular here although if you value your reputation in the community, you might want to run away now! Many a sane sailor has started out here only to find himself sucked into one of the...the...the greatest sites on the planet! A lot of helpful, knowledgable folks here.
Bob23

[kickingbug1]

    cant really help much but i have to say its a shame a great boat was treated so badly. like buying a used car figure what repairs would cost (to have a pro do them) and negociate down from there. guess if i were presented with that boat i might look elsewhere. these little boats are tough though and im sure others have fixed bigger problems than you have shown here. no matter what you cant go wrong with a com-pac

[newt]

Buckaroo- a few things go through my mind. As a boat gets older, the way it was treated becomes more important. If this one had water in the cabin and rust under the plate- well, I would get real serious about having a shipwright give me a quote on how much it will cost to make things right again. It might be more than you are willing to pay for the boat.
The good news is that there are a lot of these cute little boats out there for sale. Don't fall in love with the first one you see!

[Billy]

agreed w/ Newt. There is always a better deal. If you are handy and don't mind the work, go for it. But be careful. It is very easy to put more into these boats than they will be worth.

Under the mast step is plywood and it is very common on these boats that the wood begins to rot after several years. Fortunately, that is the only place there is wood in the glass. I had my mast step repaired w/ a new wood core for around 3-4 hundred dollars. It was done by the factory. And the repair looks great! they even added a drop of yellow paint to the glass so it doesn't look patched.

The cracks on the cleat look mostly cosmetic. If you are going to paint you should be fine.

[buckaroo]

Thanks, guys.  Apart from these problems the boat seems to be in good shape.  I figure any boat this age that hasn't been a garage queen is going to have issues, so a bird in hand, etc.  At our local marina there are 5 CP16s (not for sale, but I eyeballed 'em), and this one seems to compare favorably to what's out there.  If the problems are repairable, I'll just be take into account the cost of professional repair into my offer.  I could probably do a fair amount of the work myself, though I think I'd entrust the mast step to a pro.

[rwdsr]

Buckaroo,
Welcome to the site.  Click on my picassa link, and look at what mine looked like when I got it.  The entire inside was rotted out from having water standing in it.  I replaced all of that and came out with a real sweet boat.  Mine was a 1978 and had been sitting in the salt water for 5 years.  I learned a lot sorking on it, and not sorry I did.

BobD

[corinthian]

Where are you located?

[buckaroo]

I'm in Maryland, in the DC area.

[buckaroo]

Buckaroo,
Welcome to the site.  Click on my picassa link, and look at what mine looked like when I got it.  The entire inside was rotted out from having water standing in it.  I replaced all of that and came out with a real sweet boat.  Mine was a 1978 and had been sitting in the salt water for 5 years.  I learned a lot sorking on it, and not sorry I did.

BobD

Holy cow, that's impressive.  The one I'm looking at is a creampuff in comparison to what you started with.

[Salty19]

Buck-

I would pass on that boat unless the price was real good (<$500).  Sure it can be fixed but as mentioned you could end up spending quite a bit on it.  For a '94 it looks kind of abused?

[brackish]

Hey Buck,

For your answer to the section detail under the mast step, I would email or call Hutchins directly to get that information.  The 23 has a doubled 3/4" plywood (1.5") support under the step, but you can probably get the whole layup schedule for that particular model 16 from Hutchins.  It is not an impossible fix and may not even be an expensive fix if you're willing to do it yourself.  

If the spars and sails are in very good shape and everything is there, and the price is right, you may have something you can work with.  Keep in mind, if it were pristine from stem to stern, appropriately updated with good equipment, properly powered with a very good trailer it would probably have a worth about $5-6K, (based on my not so scientific survey from Sailing Texas) so you can work back from there to see what you would have to put into it to get there.

It is my personal opinion that repairs should be done from the outside in.  Normally, the heaviest structural glass is on the inside, lower layer, and I avoid cutting this.  On repairs of the type where you have to replace wood, it's best to open from the outside, epoxy the new wood onto the inside structural glass, then re-glass the outside.  Usually means a good paint job to finish it off and make it all look the same all over and like new.  

[jpfx]

seeing it all boils down to money...
I'd say 500 to fix the mast base and 250 for the cleat. That's DIY time/cost, not getting the pros to fix it.
Looking at the rotting inside I'd not be overly concerned although remedial action is required.
The hull sounds good, it might clean up a treat. If it isn't painted yet and you're going to be dry sailing then I would seriously avoid painting it.
About the only thing I've learnt so far about cleaning up a 16 is it takes far more money and exponentially more time than you think.
The little things count and the costs add up quickly.

[buckaroo]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  Since the only major issue seems to be repairable, I've made an offer taking it into account.  Fingers crossed.