GPS limbo

[HenryC]

Funny.  My D-310 gave me 90k trouble free miles with only routine factory maintenance.  I bought it new because a buddy of mine had one and he raved about how dependable it was. I liked it so much I traded it in 8 years later for '90 Sentra I still own and drive (134k miles), also trouble free with only R.F.M.  Maybe it was the standard shift.  I've never owned an automatic.

PS. In April, 2009, I finally broke down and bought my first cell phone (one of those unregistered untraceable drug dealer specials you recharge with a card bought at Publix.)  Except for my wife, nobody knows my cell number.

[newt]

Brackish-be cool, I am sure he did not mean to offend.
Ron- We stayed next to Panther key to weather a storm. Wonderful place down in the 10,000 islands. And a good beach.

[Bob23]

Henry:
  I have the same anti-lock feature on my 1984 Honda Accord Hatchback. Packs a whopping 86 hp, 5 speed, no radio just drive and listen to the engine. It's my sailing car. Force 5 masts and boom go on the racks and sails in the back.
  There is something refreshing about driving a low-tech car; I can't figure it out. Maybe it just transports us back to a simpler time and we like the reminders. Dunno. But I like parking at a light next to a new Accord. Mine seems to say: "You wouldn't even exist without me!"
Bob23...with an over active imagination

[HenryC]

Old cars have a neat smell, too. Especially old VW beetles.  I owned a '64, a '67, and a '71. 

[Potcake boy]

Brackish-be cool, I am sure he did not mean to offend.
Ron- We stayed next to Panther key to weather a storm. Wonderful place down in the 10,000 islands. And a good beach.

Newt - thank you, you are correct that it wasn't my purpose to be demeaning - my McDonald's reference wasn't about the employee but rather the direction our society has taken, and it was intended to be a clear analogy for the use of GPS by many who subscribe to the notion that (as Henry said - promoted by marketers) we must have these things to function. 
Sorry if anyone has a hair trigger but if my remarks would be thoroughly thought out before an emotional response then it would be perfectly clear that I don't pass judgement on others for their preferences in the use of technology.  I stated that I don't see it as right or wrong, but a matter of personal preference.  My point is that it's easy to get lost in the glitz and glitter and forget about the substance.  I don't think I can state that more concisely.

From a sailing perspective, if someone asked me if they should get a GPS for their boat I'd say I don't know.  If they asked me if they need a GPS for their boat I'd say no.  I sailed the Chesapeake for many years and fog is a common occurrence in November.  I never had anything but charts a compass and a depth finder for navigating.  Sailed more than once between Annapolis and the Susquehanna in fog so dense that you literally couldn't see beyond the lifelines. Yes it kept me a little tense and alert for sure, but I wasn't paralyzed because of the lack of a GPS.  In those days Loran was flourishing and the repeatability of that system was quite impressive, but I didn't have the sailing budget to afford one of those.  Now that I can afford, and do have a GPS I'm just not as moved by hi-tech in my sailing.  Sailing to me is many things like sharing experiences with friends and family, occasional adventure, and building great memories, it's not oriented around convenience and efficiency.

I was supposed to be anchored off Panther Key at this very moment.  The plan was to trail the 19 down to Point of Islands Marina and meet up with some members of the West Coast Trailer Sailors Squadron for a few days sail in those waters.  Well my crew got cold feet - or at least he was sure he would and requested a rain check for warmer weather.  Last year at this time is when we did the Keys Cruise and it was pretty cold then as well.  Most of the group headed home early, but I stayed and had a fantastic sail.  Not that I like cold weather - I don't - but it didn't get in the way of a little adventure.


Ron

[brackish]

Some thoughts:

This thread was started by a media report of a GPS failure that led to a sensational and potentially morbid outcome.  It was also a random, mutually exclusive, and sample size irrelevant event.  On the same day, I would venture to say there was no article written about the literally millions of folks who arrived at their destinations safely and efficiently, either by car, boat, plane or on foot by using proven GPS technology.  It is what the media does.  It worked with us, got us debating without grounding the debate with relevance.

"this is my position and here are the reasons why I hold this position".  This is constructive and welcome regardless of the readers relative agreement with the position.  "This is my position and if you don't share same, you are as incompetent as ______".  This is destructive and potentially offensive depending on what the blank is filled in with.  I'll leave it at that with a suggestion, Ron, that you work on your analogies.

I'm not a gadget person.  Based on what I do not own, I would probably be at about ten percentile along the gadget appreciation continuum.  However, I am a fan of GPS technology and my question to the minimalist(s) was never answered.  I've read some philosophical writings by those with a minimalist bent, but I'll repeat my specific question with more detail and maybe get an answer.

You are leaving Ship Island and heading for Gulfport harbor about twelve miles away across the Sound.  You are sailing a compass course and will continue to do so until you get a visual on the Gulfport skyline which may be immediate or may be a quite a few miles off depending on atmospheric conditions.  There is a deep ship channel to your port used by freighters and the occasional gaming and cruise ship, and you are staying well away from it but keeping the markers visible to affirm your position and course until you see the skyline.  You will have to cross the intercoastal out in the middle of the sound and delineated only by occasional markers, and there is barge traffic there, but you are keeping track of the barge off your starboard bow, to determine if you are on a collusion course.  It seems that you are, but you will duck behind when you get closer.

You have a ninety percent chance that you are on a run with a following sea, that requires good helmsman effort to maintain course.  The other ten percent of the time you will be tacking to weather.  Let's assume the ninety.

Your goal is to enter the Gulfport small craft harbor.  The entrance is narrow, maybe fifty feet across, with markers out about a half mile.  At the entrance to starboard is a rock jetty with water on both sides, the non channel side is shallow.  To port are shoals with no visible delineation by reading the water, only the green channel markers.  Just west, further to port about a hundred feet from the small craft channel is the deep water freight channel.  There is likely to be traffic at any given time.  It will be traffic that will not be able to avoid you if you are in the way and you do not have the right of way because you are sailing.

You've got about four miles to go and all of a sudden a dense fog rolls out from land.  From your helm position you can see your compass but nothing past your bow.  You know that the barge is still off your starboard bow.  You know, within maybe a quarter of a mile diameter circle, approximately where you are.   How, very specifically,  do you make your approach and safely reach your slip?

Over a forty year span with navigational aids from nothing to RDF/ADF, to Loran, to GPS, I've made this trip maybe 250 times, with maybe ten of those in the conditions described or worse, in a raging blinding thunderstorm.  It is my view that everybody who might venture out in conditions as described above should have a GPS even if they only turn it on once in a blue moon.  Mine, with software, was less than 500 bucks.  One safe arrival to port in dangerous conditions and I consider it more than paid for.

[Red Planet]

That's a thoughtful post, brackish. New technology seems to spur differences of opinion about efficacy, ethics, morality and virility among those who chose to use it and those who prefer not to. I suspect there were similar conversations when sailors first began using compasses. Or sextants.

The older technologies are comfortable. We've learned how to use them, when to trust them and when to question their results. The learning curve for adopting GPS involves more than just which button to push and how to interpret the moving map. It involves learning the failure modes and developing a sense of when to trust the instrument and when to question in. Before there were electronic calculators we used slide rules. The fundamental lesson of the slide rule is "trust but verify." We'd use the precision result available from the slide rule only if it was in pretty good agreement with the math we did in our heads. If not, we'd come at the problem from another direction.

GPS is another tool, a sharper one than we've had before, but still not infallible.

[newt]

I will be happy to tell you what I would do Brachish, if I was in a mimmialist mode. I would get off the channel, hopefully in a protected area, and wait out the storm. If I had to get back to my job, I would fire up the GPS, the AIS and radar and navigate accordingly. Do you want to fish with a fly rod or electroshock with a net?

[Potcake boy]

Brackish - I would have responded sooner but have actual matters of substance in my life that require my time.
To address your question I read it thoroughly so that I understood it clearly.  It seems that the answer was provided in your statement that you have navigated that approach for forty years or so well before the advent of GPS, Loran, or even RDF.
So how DID you navigate threading a major commercial route in zero visibility fog without these aides or RADAR?  I think I would have been prone to take Newt's advice with or without GPS.  Most any prudent sailor would tell you to avoid already risky situations in bad weather even with GPS.  Has your GPS lured you into unwarranted risks - have you failed to do your own thinking?

The following is personal commentary and has no sailing related value:

This forum was created for Compac sailors to exchange information, ideas, and opinions - it has fulfilled that purpose well.  I responded to a question about the importance of GPS to us small boat sailors which by it's nature mandated an opinion.  My opinion included a little extra color which to most folks suggests the less serious side of opinion as opposed statement of fact.  There was no personal reference to you or any group that I think you'd want to identify with.  However with the help of your wife, you decided that you were personally offended, and assumed the right for personal retaliation against me.  I posted a clarification mainly for your benefit, but you seem bent on continuing this antagonistic pursuit with your subsequent posts.  If your goal is contentious debate, maybe you should take it elsewhere.  Harking back to your roots, McDonald's has a 55+ breakfast club that offers free coffee refills.  There seems to be plenty of lively debate, and I'm sure the floor is open to any gripe.
Hopefully this makes my position perfectly clear and I offer apologies only to the rest of this group for having to slough this worthless verbage.  This concludes my respose to this or any future posts  from you.

Ron

[brackish]

  It seems that the answer was provided in your statement that you have navigated that approach for forty years or so well before the advent of GPS, Loran, or even RDF.

So how DID you navigate threading a major commercial route in zero visibility fog without these aides or RADAR?

Ron

My statement was that I made that trip 250 or so times with about ten of them having the approach blinded.  I never made any statement about "making" the approach blindly without instruments.  I simply asked those that considered GPS optional or not necessary how they would do that.   Newt was right.  I had to immediately turn to a course that paralleled the ICW veering slightly away from it and going in a direction opposite the barge tow.  Then, when sure the barge had passed, turn back north to a new course that would take me at least a half mile east of the small craft channel entrance.  At that point, out of traffic, heave to or drop a hook and wait for the fog to lift.  As far as a GPS luring me into a dangerous situation, that is ridiculous.  When on a multi-day trip do you think you can predict the onset of fog?

On the other hand, Ron, you made the statement "I sailed the Chesapeake for many years and fog is a common occurrence in November.  I never had anything but charts a compass and a depth finder for navigating".  With that experience, I thought you may have commented on how to make a blind channel approach.  I won't do it, don't think it is safe (without GPS), but if there is a safe method, you should share it.  Or maybe you did the same thing, waited for the clear.

Ron, you must have missed the smile by the comment about my wife.  She thought it was funny.

Fly fishing Newt, although I've tried it and am terrible at it.  Can't get that ten o'clock/two o'clock thing down.  Thing is, I don't equate the skill and challenge required for that with bobbing around waiting for the fog to lift.  You've made it clear that others may find that part of the experience valuable.  I can add that to the list of things I used to know for sure but now don't fully understand but accept.  As I've aged, that list keeps growing.  Inexplicably, I find that comforting.

Ron, around here the old guys use Hardee's.  Haven't been but I might try it.

[newt]

Wow- I have to go show these posts to my wife. Here I am right on both sides of a discussion. She is sure that I am usually wrong on both sides

[Bob23]

Ok, now gents:
  This reminds me of an instance when, about 2 years ago here on the site, I shot my mouth off to a fellow Compac-er. (not implying that anyone here is or has done that.) He shot back, I re-shot. After some thought (and prayer) I realized what an ass I was, apoligized to my bro, and we emerged as comrades here on the site. I haven't heard from him in a while, though, and miss him and his contributions.
  I really didn't follow this thread all that close so I ain't gonna pick it apart. Suffice to say, my good friend Jim B. once gave me some advice that I'll use for the rest of my life: "Eat the fish and spit out the bones!"
  I have learned so much from these exchanges and sure hope that my occasional 2 cents helps or at least entertains some of you. If I have ever offended anyone here, my sincerest apologies. I don't think it has.
  Sure would be cool if everyone showed up at Carlyle Lake! I hopin' to!!!
Bob23
Henry- I've owned about 14 air-cooled vw's in the past. They are unique. I did the most laughing and the most cursing in them! I'd love to have another one but I love my Tundra's heat!

[mrb]

Wow,  This was a good one to miss out on.  Only comment I could add would be for everyone to go back and read carefully what they and others have posted then think what they have proposed in other posts.

Melvin