Performed a "cajun" rudder bushing-ectomy today...No offense Cajun ;)

[kchunk]

Instead of going the full bronze bushing method, I opted for the bushing-o-milk jug method I've seen posted here and other places. First, I cut four pieces out of the plastic milk jug, each 1" X 1.25". I assume my rudder hinge is stock, using 5/16 stainless bolts as rudder pins. Next, took a 3/8 drill and slightly oversized my already worn castings on both the rudder and rudder bracket. I suppose you could remove the brackets and take them to a machine shop to have them line-bored, but I just drilled them by hand leaving the bracket on the transom (and the boat in the water). Then I took the 4 little squares of plastic and bent the 1" dimension around the bolts to give them a tubular shape and then work them into the holes on the rudder head and the bracket. The bolts were very snug but if you rotate them like you were screwing them in they went right in and the plastic bushing didn't rotate or push out. Once the bolts were worked a little in the bushed holes, I just reassembled the rudder with two nylon washers on each bolt between the rudder and bracket castings and stainless washers under the bolt head and nut. Oh, and, uh, nuts down...sorry Skip 

I was going to use bronze bushings, but all I could find (without looking real hard) were 3/8" OD X 1/4" ID. Do you think it's kosher replacing my 5/16" rudder hinge bolts with 1/4"? In my mind, it seems OK...but then again, in my mind, the nuts should go down. What do you say skip?

--Greg

[Craig Weis]

Well errrr hummmmm Greg, let me say this about that. Put your nuts where ever you feel most comfortable!
Everything including nut down seams just fine. I suppose the plastic will ware a little faster, and the nylon washers will also. As you know that is the factory method as well...to use 'plastic inserts' in both castings. I did not know this until one peeled up my drill bit. And let me add I hear no mention of nyloc-nuts so they ought to go 'nuts down' just in case one of your nuts drops. Off. skip. You make me laugh. Thanx.

[kchunk]

Being an aircraft mechanic, all fasteners have a locking feature. I drilled a hole in my bolts and used castellated nuts and cotter pins. No, just kidding. Of course I used lock nuts...and new ones at that.

Seriously, I think the plastic will wear out pretty soon too. Let me ask you, what do you think about using 3/8" bushing and using 1/4" stainless bolts instead of the 5/16" bolts. The shear strength is quite a bit less with the small bolts, but I don't think the force applied by the rudder will be anywhere near the shear strength of the smaller bolt.

--Greg

[Craig Weis]

1/4 " stainless...your the fly boy. I'd say that this smaller dia will work just fine, after all, 10,000 x the thickness [1/4"] divided by 4 = the safe working limit of the steel bolt so 625lb for each one. You'll break the tiller first.  And two bolts are used. If your still iffy use titanium. skip

[don l]

No offence, you seem to speaking in my second language, Yankee.  I had to go outside and look at the boat to see if understood what you all were typing about.  I have a question, is the bracket (which the rudder hangs off) that expensive, hard to change, or a hard to find item ?   Be straight ,  are you all  just trying to confuse this cajun?

[kchunk]

When these plastic thingies wear out, I'll press in the 3/8 hat bushings and go with the 1/4" bolts.

Cajun, I'm a reformed Yankee. I haven't been a Yankee for some 20 years now 

My bracket is on with just four bolts. The bolts are easy to get to, the nuts on the other hand, they'll involve me going down the basement. Last time I went "down the basement" I almost didn't make it back up. That, and like Skip said, his bracket was sealed on too. All sounds like a lot of trouble...it's do-able if I HAVE to...but avoidable until then.

--Greg

[don l]

Sounds like something, when and if it happen to my boat, I will just pay the money.  Just getting old, but thanks for the information, I like reading and learning.

don

[kchunk]

Actually, the reason why I DON'T change it is because I'm getting old. Ever been "down the basement" on a 23? Kinda picture standing on your head, bent over backward and only your feet sticking out of the port cockpit locker.

I wasn't kidding about the last time I was down there. I was at the boat, alone, installing a transom shower and I was stuck down there! Nothing but my feet sticking out.  lol 

[Craig Weis]

Wait a minute guys. This ain't rocket science.
The 'bracket' is an aluminum casting right?

"It don't bend, it don't give.
It just breaks if over stressed." [I got rythum!!]


As I said in an earlier post I started in the quarter birth and skinned to the transom and using 4 small vice grips snapped clamped each one onto a nut holding the cast rudder assembly onto the transom.
Then skinned out and unscrewed the 4~1/4" ss bolts till I head each vise grip fall off the threads with nut still clamped. A little heat to 160 deg F and a good rubber hammer beating and the casting falls off the outside of the boat.
No big deal. Re bush and reinstall. See pics. skip.

[kchunk]

I get it that it ain't no rocket science. And I agree. But on a 23 is does take Yoga Science to get to the inside of the transom. At least on my boat, I don't have a backdoor to the basement. The quarter berths are blocked by bulkheads. Only way in is through the cockpit.

I suppose I could just fold one of the kids up and stuff them down there. They'd be easy enough to pull back up 

The reason I keep calling it "the basement" is because last time I was down there I found someone had written THE BASEMENT on the underside of the cockpit floor, with an arrow pointing the way. You can only read it when you're down there.

We'll see how the milk jug bushings hold out. The rudder feels quite solid today.

[mike gartland]

I've purchased the insert bronze bushings from Com-Pac but haven't mustered the nerve yet to pull the rudder assembly and do the bore-out thing but the play in the rudder slowly gets worse and time is quickly approaching to get on with it.  I plan to do it while the boat is in the water as we don't have to pull them very often along the Gulf Coast as we're lucky enough to sail year round (between hurricanes).  But crawling into the "basement" really isn't such an ordeal....I've done it several times, once to add some additional backing plates to the outboard motor mount and another time when I needed to be totally submerged in the locker to close the lazarette hatches and scribe around the inside of the opening with a pencil to properly locate rubber gaskets as part of my project to make the hatches water tight in the case of a knock-down (after installing latches to securely hold them closed when laying the boat over on her side....and, yes, I once had a guest skipper accidentally lay my CP-23  over so far we had volumes of cold water pouring over the coaming and into the cockpit and no water entered the boat.)  It's a bit of work to angle sideways and twist the lower body back under the cockpit floor but it can be done and there is enough room to maneuver tools and parts around once you get in there and convince yourself that you will actually be able to get yourself out again.  Good luck.

Mike

WindRush

[LConrad]

For whatever it is worth, I drilled mine using an extra long bit - about 12 inches, pressed in the new bushings from com-Pac with C-clamps, and installed the Com-Pac foil rudder.  What an improvement - no sloppy feeling in the tiller. Steering is much easier.  The extra long drill bit gave me more conficence about the alignment. I started with the top, then drilled right through the bottom one using the top hole for better alignment.

[Craig Weis]

That's fine, using the top hole for alignment for the bottom hole, but please do not use one long bolt for both holes as any mis-alignment will tend to stress the two aluminum nubs that the new bushings have been C-clamped~pressed into. 

Use two separate stainless steel bolts, nyloc nuts, [I put my nuts up to be able to monitor any backing off.] and at least two s.s. flat washers between the top-o-bushings and bottom-o-casting or if you pressed in another bushing top-side [using a total of four bushings for the entire job], resulting in two bushings face to face, do not use the two washers between the bushings and use the washers under the bolt heads. It's better to ware the two bronze shoulder bushings, shoulder to shoulder, IMHO.

It's all about spreading out the weight. The stress. I don't really know why the original rudder assembly uses 'plastic' as bushings...other then is less costly, [Mine change over cost me $14 and change at Ace Hardware here in town] and maybe salt water has something to do with it. The maker of the IdaSailor rudder say to use plastic as well. I don't really know which is better but I do know we had a sailor on the Yahoo site who had a problem with disassembly, but he sailed in salt. 

Do that both for top and bottom assemblies. See picture on Frappr. Use a lot of NeverSleze or other lube.
skip.

[LConrad]

Skip,

Good thought. I never would have thought about using a single bolt, but I can see where somebody might have thought I did. One long drill, two bolts.