Hull #57 In the Water

[elibobeli]

Folks, just a note to let everyone know that I have been lurking long enough, but now am the proud owner of Eclipse #57.  Traveled from Michigan to Clearwater to get it.  Few facts to share:  '02 Chevy Silverado Half ton averaged nearly 17mpg going down, and 14mpg pulling home.  AC on nearly the whole time with traffic jam in Clearwater and in Atlanta with boat.  Boat travels well.  I was pleased.

My dealer, Rob Voigt at Great Lakes Sailboat Co. in East Lansing, Michigan has been excellent to work with.  I have no doubts he will be there for me if help is needed.

I am a new sailor, but did sleep at a Holiday Inn in Florida on the return trip.  I have put the boat in Muskegon Lake, Michigan 2 times in the last week without a hitch.  Dipped the rail and scared two of four passengers on the first sail.  Two of four passengers were loving it.  I explained to the crew the safety rounding up feature the boat has (loved that from earlier discussion)  Second sail, three adults, two kids (mine, 2yrs and 4yrs) light and flat.  Everyone enjoyed the sail, except when I smacked my 2yr old in the cheek with a hard push of the tiller leaving the dock.  No bruise, he forgave me.

We have considered a name for her - "thud".  That is the sound of my head, knees and toes bouncing off something in the boat.  Not clumsy just got to get my sea legs and head.

She will be well sailed by the end of summer.  If you see a guy and gal with two youngins bobbing around in the channel and the car ferry is running them down, please help them.   

I appreciate all the information you folks have been discussing and look forward to future discussions.

[jmh123]

Congrats!

We sailed our Eclipse out of Great Lakes last year -you'll have the Princess's scheduled memorized shortly!

We're sailing on the other side this season -Tawas Bay.

We pull ours with a Rav4, 6 cylinder and no problems. We got 18 or 19 mpg on our last tow -but we weren't going 70.

And yes, we too have found Rob & Great Lakes Sailboats a great resource.

John (Lansing)

[Glenn Basore]

Great,

Another Eclipse owner to chat with.

I sail out of Ventura California in the Pacific ocean.

I tow with a 1996 s-10 Blazer average 14 towing.

What kind of trailers are comming with the new boats now ?

Glenn B.

[elibobeli]

John and Glenn,

Good to hear from you guys.  Good info on the towing vehicles.  My wife has been talking about getting something that will pull the boat but better on fuel.  My VW Jetta won't quite do it.

Boat came with Magic Tilt trailer.  Seems to work fine.  Bearing buddies (no caps, grease all over), low clearance.  Haven't found any major issues yet.  Lot of metal exposed below to etch the keel when loading.  Oops.  Remedied that issue.

Only lauched on one ramp so don't have a lot of experience yet.

Look forward to talking Eclipse's with you fellas.

Take care,

Allan

[Craig Weis]

Well Allan the important thing is that the boat, you and crew are on the water. You'll find that the more up-right the boat is the better time you'll make. But you won't have as much fun.

So you need to pull about 2000 lb. Boat, trailer, stuff, plus load within the towing thing.

OK a Subaru Outback has about a 3400 lb Tow Capacity.
The smaller Fords?
Saturn VUE.
A lot to pick from.
Welcome and hear here. skip.

[Glenn Basore]

Allan,

Let me know what you decide on for a tow vehicle.

My little s-10 blazer has 150 k miles on it and the only time I drive it now is to tow the boat.

I would not want anything smaller and the blazer does OK, but a bigger tow vehicle would be nicer.

With that many miles on it I know it wont be long before I need a new engine and transmission. rather than put all that money into repairs I'm thinking about finding a full size truck (1/4 or 1/2 ton) that is a couple of years old in like new condition that the owner cant afford driving now because of the high gas prices. If I found something not too expensive this might be better and it too would just be parked on my driveway next to the boat.

[elibobeli]

Skip et all, thanks.  Speaking of sailing flat.  I have already been out in some stiff winds with reefed sails.  Eclipse only has one reef in main.  I am starting to feel comfortable sailing heeled to a point, but my wife, well she is a little uncomfortable, especially when the puff hits and she feels we are going over.  Can you guys and gals offer me any facts, figures or personal knowledge that I can use to assure her that we are not going over.  Heck, I don't live on the lake, have two kids and sometimes I am going to be out when the "ideal" honeymoon sail isn't going to happen.  I know my limits will be reached before the boats limits will be, but how to make her comfy when we can't sail flat, besides turning the motor on.

Thanks,

Allan

[Potcake boy]

Allen,
You can also de-power your sails by introducing more twist to the shape, effectively trimming the top portion of the sail more eased than the lower portion. For the main you position the traveler more to windward and ease the sheet till the upper sail is just about luffing, and keep the outhaul,and downhaul tensioned. To get more twist in the foresail move the sheet car aft which eases the leech and opens the upper area of the sail. This will allow you to keep proper and comfortable trim to maintain forward speed, and reduce the dramatic reaction to the gusts.
Excessive heeling is not just uncomfortable for your wife or guests but is very detrimental to good boat performance and balance, the factors you need to keep it all under control.
Of course on a monohull the more heel the less power generated by the sails so you are ultimately safe although getting rounded up under those conditions can be a scary experience especially for the uninitiated.
Keep in mind that boats sail better sailing flatter - part of the reason multihulls are so damn fast - they don't heel to speak of. As the boat heels the lift generated by the sails is at a greater downward angle thus pressing the boat harder into the water - kind of like adding a lot of weight. The poor stubby keel of a CompPac is effectively even stubbier and more leeway is experienced.
Excessive heeling is also more taxing on the crews energy, and all your junk gets tossed about in the cabin while you stare helplessly from the helm.

Forget macho - go with the flow,
Ron

[Craig Weis]

Allen,
Sailing flat vs heeling [a bit]...
Yes I can offer some advise to relieve that feeling of going over.
I would have the 'party' concerned about going over do the actual sailing of the boat. People seem to be less scared when they are in control, tiller/main sheet, headsail sheet....no matter what happens you don't say anything unless asked to. skip.

[elibobeli]

Ron,  I had a chance to work with depowered main this weekend and kept her sailing flat.  The boat was quite responsive to small sail trim changes.  Everyone was happy, especially the captain who continues to learn how to sail.  Thanks for the tips.

Skip, I have used this line recently with reluctant participants; "I need to go forward to adjust the outhaul, could you take the helm."  I have also asked my wife to hold the mainsheet and ease it when she feels uncomfortable.  I think in time with more experience we will all be sailing flat or flattish and happy.

Even with the good advice, the thought of going over will continue to linger in my wife's mind when the boat heels.  (I am learning and may not always keep it flat.)  If she was sailing with a veteran sailor and the boat heeled and he told her what it would take to put the boat on her side, she could wrap her thoughts around that compared to the current conditions.  Sailing with me, she could look me straight in the face and tell me I don't know what it would take to put the boat on it's side.  She is right.  I don't want to find out, but would like a veteran sailor to give me his thoughts on what it would take, so I could pass that wisdom on to her.

My thought would be the boat will generally heel over to a point, dig in and continue on (I have felt this).  In a real blow or gusts it would either be knocked over on the side and then right itself, or the captain would react and round it up, if he could react quick enough.  Are my thoughts about right?

Nothing macho about me, just trying to ascertain the limits of my boat through the knowledge of someone else, without pushing myself, my crew and my boat to find out first hand.

Every time out I learn a bit more.

Allan

[Potcake boy]

Allen,

Sounds like you all had a more relaxing sail. I must comment that if your mates haven't mutinied then you likely have a loyal crew who will come to enjoy the sailing comfortably with a little more experience.

The simple answer to your questin of the boat going over: you're already aware that she seems to have a threshold and you are absolutely correct. As a ballasted keel boat heels the ballast has more and more leverage against the effort of the sail which is diminishing the more the heel as it reduces the profile of the sail to the wind. So you will reach a balancing point between the two and usually at that  point the weather helm has increased to the extent that the hull steers itself through the wind (called rounding up) and either brings you directly into the wind or she may tack and leave you backwinded. The process just described is an awkward and uncomfortable way of dealing with being over powered so it's time to de-power if this happens. If the weather is very gusty you can deal with this by easing the main sheet in the puffs. If you are being persistently overpowered - de-power.
I suspect from your comments that you will find yourself seeking answers to differences in performance based on differences in design. If you have friends that sail a racing sailboat, beg a ride and see the contrast in performance aspects of a completely different design. Personally unless it's a multihull I don't see the performance aspects so much in terms of raw speed - what's 5mph compared to 4mph, but I don't race. Sailing qualities, ease of sailing, comfort are some other important aspects of design. However just because a boat design is inherently slow doesn't mean it will be comfortable or easy to sail. ComPac designs do a very good job of balancing a number of compromises, putting them at the top of the list as all around boats.

Enjoy the white knuckles - it's kind a like being a teen all over again

Ron

[Paul]

Good advise guys.  Thought I'd chine in, too.

Years ago, I was successful in explaining the heeling phenomena to my wife and crew using a lever analogy.  Hull is the pivot point.  Sail is one end of a lever.  Keel/ballast is the other end.  Once she saw this in action, she could see and feel it on the boat.  This helped with confidence.  Then she could feel it in the controls, that is the tiller and the mainsheet.

Many moons ago, we took sailing lessons together.  You are correct when you say she'll believe someone else (sailing instructor) more readily than you (the spouse).  Afraid that's human nature on boats.    None the less, learning together may be good for both of you.

Sounds like you're doing well.  Keep at it and have fun.

[elibobeli]

To all,
Since you all have been so gracious in offering me advice, I will let you all know how it has been useful.  We had a great sail on Lake Leelanau (pinky area of lower Michigan).  I can't give any wind speeds, but it was sunny and the winds "seemed" good for sailing.  Started out with full sails, with as much twist in the main as could before being on spreader.  We sailed at a good clip, close hauled but the gusts would heel us more than we liked.  We rolled the jib to working size.  I asked my wife to keep the mainsheet in her hand and to ease it when she felt uncomfortable.  So without her telling me verbally, I could tell when she was uncomfortable.  We sailed down the lake, essentially owning it on a Saturday afternoon.  I decided to reef the main in a sheltered area before sailing back.  No heeling on the gusts.  By the time we got back half way the wind settled and we shook the reef out.   She took the helm for the rest of the sail.  What a great time.  I went below to play cars with my two year old son while my four year old daughter dangled her feet in the water off the stern.

I think time will allow us to "heel" together.

Allan