sailing to windward in heavy weather

[jhopps]

Just visited the link to yahoo and was reading about poor headway with just the Main in heavy weather.  I am not signed up over there so I am posting my answer here.

Yep, that has been my experience also on cp16.  

Without the headsail the boat goes real slow.  When you go slow, the keel no work so good.  It is like putting the boat in reverse or something.  I know what I am about say is contrary but leave the headsail up and drop the main if you have to.  Fall off the wind to get up some speed then come back up.  This will work better, try it someday so you will know when you need to do it in heavy air.  The main thing is to keep the boat moving.  Also, forget about making the boat stand up, she sails best at about 10 -15 deg heel.

I have not been able to go faster than about 2 knots to windward with just the main, but with just the little (3/4 rig) jib I have got up to full speed with enough wind.  you will not point real well but you will point some.  With just the Main you will point, but you don't seem to go forward, instead you just go sideways.

[mgoller]

Hi J,
That was my experience too with just the main.  This winter I took my sails in to North Sails.  The guy was very nice and professional.  He could have laughed out loud at my raggy old original sails.  He showed me the airfoil on old sails vs. new sails on the same boat with some before and after pictures.  The greatest chord length of the airfoil on old sails is about mid point back on the triangleextending the full length.  The greatest chord length on a new sail is about 1/3 of the way back from the leading edge extending the full length.  When I told him how my boat sailed he showed me why.  My sails pulled me almost sideways, and only a little bit forward.  My sails were soft and pliable.  They were worn out.
My new sails have new resin in the poly fibers and they are crinkly and stiff.  My CP 19 sails forward now and handles heavy wind great.  My old sails used to scare me a little when the wind kicked up.  My boat would heel over and be sluggish.
I can sail equally well with main or jib.
Now I agree with your advice.  Sailing on a reach with just the main is slow and sometimes that is what I want.  Sailing on a reach with just jib is faster but tricky.  The boat has no weather helm and tends to fall off.  When it does this I ease the jib until it is just giving me power and then I work back to my course and continue trimming in.  I definitely don't cleat the jib when sailing jib only.
The reasons for the way the boat handles on main and or jib alone when reaching has to do with where the forward force of the sail is greatest.  With the jib the force is just off to the side of the bow pulling forward.  With the main the force is just off to the side of the cabin pulling forward.

I use jib only a lot when on a broad reach and when running too.  I have furling so it is quick to power and to de-power.  I do this alot when I am just hopping around fishing different holes.  If I am seriously going out to sail I put the main up first.  If I need to relax a minute I tighten the tiller tender, furl in the jib and let the main do its thing.  The boat usually weather vanes pretty good for a moment or two.  I sure wouldn't go below on jib only.
I love my new sails!

[Bob23]

How about a 2nd reef point in the main, and reducing the jib to match (via roller furling, of course). My 23 handles high winds well and I only have one set of reef points in the main, but she likes to have some jib up to maintain course. I'll reduce the jib to a hanky in strong winds.
Bob23

[Rick Klages]

Same theory works for main only on the 16. Fall off some to get the water flowing over the keel then head up.  Yeah a little slow under the main alone but very controllable in the gusts.  I've seen good downwind performance on just the main (5 kt). I do prefer to use both jib and main.

ick

[curtisv]

You'll sail better with balanced sails.  You also sail better if not heeled too far.

If you take all the headsail down then you increase weather helm.  Reef the main instead.  If you sail in winds too strong for a single reef have someone add a second reef (cost me $125 for my CP23).

Then there is the obvious.  You have to be able to set your sails properly.  Assuming you know how to read telltale and set the sails, etc ...

My CP23 has 2 reefs in the main and a 110 jib on a roller furler.  I also have a 60% jib that I've still never used.  I've sailed in 25 knots sustained with 5 foot waves on the ocean and she handles it beautifully.  I've also sailed with gusts to 35 knots and she handled that quite well.  We've served champagne and appetizers aboard in 35 knot gusts which requires a bit of attention on the tiller and maybe even a quick sheet out on the main now and then so as not to spill the bubbly.  I love sailing in 20-25 knots.

I haven't sailed a CP16 or CP19 but I've heard (read) that they are quite capabile in the right hands.

Advice for sailing in stronger winds (not sure if 25 knots or 35 knot gusts counts as heavy weather):  Don't fill the champagne glasses all the way.    And be sure give the admiral plenty of warning before you tack if she's handling a tray of appetizers. 

Curtis

[Bob23]

Curtis:
   I just reread your post and my question is: How can I get my admiral out on the boat? Let alone serving apps and champagne? Most of my sailing is done alone...not entirely bad...solitude these days is rare but needed.
   Cheers! Bob23

[multimedia_smith]

Curtis is correct... the 23 translates (scaled down) to the 16 as they are the same shape.  With my 16, I have gone out with my heavy air setup and had a great time under full control when other boats are having trouble making way.  Unlike Curtis, I do use my 60% jib and along with one or two reefs in the main, I can get to hull speed and make good headway upwind or wherever.   I would definitely recommend getting a second reef in the main and having the 60% jib is now a standard part of my repetoire.  On my new heavy air main, the first reef reduces the luff by 3.5' and the second reef takes another 3.5'.  My old standard main and my light air full batten main only reduce the first reef by 18"... not enough in my opinion.  I arrived at the luff lengths by using the roller reefing on the old standard main with the 60% jib.  I really like being able to use the vang now with reefs rather than rolls.  National sails now has both specs in their inventory files... they are not expensive and are really really useful.
As usual, here are a couple of pics.
Best Regards
Dale

http://www.com-pacowners.com/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=10114&pos=-814

http://www.com-pacowners.com/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=10114&pos=-813

[curtisv]

Curtis:
   I just reread your post and my question is: How can I get my admiral out on the boat? Let alone serving apps and champagne? Most of my sailing is done alone...not entirely bad...solitude these days is rare but needed.
   Cheers! Bob23

Tara likes to entertain more than she likes to sail.  She loves to sit on the bow and talk to a friend while the guys sail the boat.




That not to say she's never held the tiller.



After a while she got so used to entertaining that she ignored the wind and waves.  When on one sail we were in 35 knot gusts she was too busy arranging the little shrimpies on the platter to worry about us heeling at 30 degrees now and then.

I still haven't got Tara to join me on a sail to Nantucket which isn't all that far away but requires the better part of a day on the ocean from where we sail.  Still afraid of getting sea sick.  We'll get there.   I've sailed there so maybe Tara will take the ferry.

Curtis

[Bob23]

Ciurtis:
   The ship looks great and the ladies look happy. Who could ask for more? My wife assured me that she'd go out once in a while but for the most part, I'm a solo sailor.  I like alone time...gives me time to think. And write.
Bob23, launch day today!!

[newt]

Good Luck with your launch today, bring a friend along to take pictures and crank up the mast!

[Bob23]

Newt:
   The ships in the water at last, but no pictures. My friend Dennis showed up just in the nick of time to help raise the mast. Dennis and I are saling buddies ( he sails a Morgan 30) and we help each other out with each others boat projects, although I think I owe him a lot of time.
   I need to really learn how to post photos on this site; I have a billion of 'em. Just too darned busy workin' and sailing and.....living!'
   Cheers! Bob23 with a big smile!!!

[newt]

Curtis,
I was jealous of those pictures of yours, and then I saw your Bimini! Were did you get it, it looks almost like factory made. We are getting cooked without one on the GSL, it seems the salty water is really reflective.
And how did you download your pictures on to your message?
Congrats to Bob- may you have fair winds...
I was out in 20kt winds on Friday- had a blast but was tired and dehydrated by the end. Under reefed sails she just loved it. The speedo showed 6.8 kts/hour surfing down swells. (I guess I need to adjust it)

[curtisv]

Curtis,
I was jealous of those pictures of yours, and then I saw your Bimini! Were did you get it, it looks almost like factory made. We are getting cooked without one on the GSL, it seems the salty water is really reflective.
And how did you download your pictures on to your message?

The bimini came with the boat.  It gets in the way and sun isn't all that hot in New England so it's been in a garage for a few years.  Hopefully the mice haven't got to it.

Pictures can be inserted using the img icon, second row, second from left.  Put the URL of the image inside the pair of square bracket pairs that get inserted in your message.

Curtis

[newt]

Thanks Curtis- I learned how to get the pictures up as long as they are already on the net somewhere.
PM sent.