Hull-deck joint

[dbunny23]

Hi all,

has anyone considered/tried fiberglassing hull-deck joint?  If so, how did it work out, and/or reasons to do it or not to do it.  Saw this mentioned in one of Don Casey's books.

Thanks,

George

[idouglas]

While I own a CP16, seems to me I recall that the hull/deck joint needs to be flexible to allow for flexing of the hull/deck.  That is why the joint is generally filled with 5200 rather than glassed, as the later would be too rigid.

idouglas

[dbunny23]

Thanks! 

[rmonsma]

George,

Why would you want to make this joint permanent?  What would be the advantage?  Are you considering doing this?

Roger

[dbunny23]

Not really considering it, Roger, just interested. 

In Don Casey's Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, he states on pg. 25 "The best joints(hull-deck) are fiberglassed together into a strong and leak-free unit, but few boats are built this way." and on the next page, "The best solution for a leaking hull to deck joint is to join the two parts permanently with fiberglass lay-up."

Being a novice sailor, and an even more novice boat restorer(!) it made sense to me.  Truthfully, and again, not being an expert, i would think even a hull-deck joint that is fiberglassed together will still have some flex, etc.  Again, as a novice, i don't think i would be willing to try it, though!
I definitely welcome all comments/explanations.  Always willing to learn!

George

[breeze]

George, glassing the hull and deck together is necessary depending on the use of the boat. There is a lot of preparatory work for this job. All the glass must be ground clean 6" to 8" from the joint. Then the easy part, using epoxy resin build up 6 laminates of mat and cloth varying the with of the laminates to avoid hard spots.
This will greatly strengthen the gunel of the boat. If you sail in protected areas, or limited exposer to bad conditions this would be a messy and expensive job with little or no payback for most sailer's.  Personly there are a number of structural improvements that I am preparing to make to my 23. Stringers running for and aft. removing the cement balist and adding 3/16 to the keel thickness and replacing the cement with lead, this will make the boat stiffer and right her self if knocked down. 
Just my 2 cents. 
Thanks David

[Bob23]

David:
  That's alot of lead! What would that weigh? Don't you think the 23's are somewhat self-righting as they are? I've never been totally knocked down so I wouldn't know from experience.
   I like the idea of thicker glass at the keel.
  For and aft stringers...hmm...interesting!
  bob23 in NJ

[breeze]

Bob  the weight will be the same. The deference is the volume, lead has farless volume for the same weight of cement. This will lower the center of gravity and allow me to place other heavy items in the bilge. The best place for weight.
I have not had a knockdown in a copac, but two times in 30+ft boats on lake Ontario
Spreader tips one time and the top of the mast anothertime. Both of these boats Had deep keels and rebounded well. I do have a deferint job for this boat to perform. I am looking for a strong boat with shallow draft and tailorable. The 23 meets the items i was looking for, the changes that i am doing is for trips to the Bahamas and other open water sails. Whit I removed the rubrail I was surprises to find pop rivits and glue holding the deck on. The loads from the rigging all go into the hall. but waves hit the bow the Hal has a tendency to oil can, and the deck Hal joint works. This is a likely place for leaks to start. If they are glassed together and a stringer added the hall will have a great deal of stiffness and the oil caning should end
Tanks David

[Bob23]

David:
   Interesting...you obviously have thought this through. Pop rivets? Wow... Iv'e never removed my rub rail but I'd rather see bolts at least with 5200 between, at least for my purposes.
  Where do you plan on installing the stringer? And the lead for a keel...gives a lot more storage space...could increase the headroom if the floorboards were reconoitered, right?
  Where do you sail from? I reside in the fair state of NJ and have dreamt about taking my 23 to Bermuda. I think she could do it with a few modifications but I'm still learning.
  Fair winds!
  Bob23

[kchunk]

The hull-deck joint conversations on these boards remind me of the keel bolt conversations I used to ponder on the Catalina forums.

Regarding the Com-Pacs, I do believe the original 23's and some (if not all) of the 23/2's were pop riveted at the joint. I'm pretty sure starting with the 23/3, the decks were bolted to the hull. But I have to ask the question, How many Com-Pac structural failures have been linked to hull-decks being pop riveted?

When I had my Catalina, I was always worried about the keel bolts. The fin keel is a solid lead billet with studs projecting from the top. These studs passed through matching holes in the hull and were secured with nuts and washers in the bilge. The hardware looked precariously light considering the weight of the keel and the angles of heel. And if that's not enough, the earlier Catalina's used mild steel hardware which resulted in a mere pile of rust hold the keel on. Imagining how catastrophic losing the keel and ballast might be, quite a few owners were unnerved by this and planned to remedy the situation. I think my remedy came when someone posted the questions: Despite the thousands of Catalinas manufactured over the years, how many have been lost due to a catastrophic separation of the keel? I couldn't find any.

I think any boat, regardless of size or cost, will have some manufacturing shortcomings to some extent. No one boat is perfect for every sailor. In my opinion, the Com-Pacs are better than average. But when it comes time that I'm ready to take a step up and seek out deeper, bluer waters, I'll look for a more appropriate boat rather than try making my Com-Pac something that it wasn't built for.

Until then, I'm loving this boat more and more everyday! Today, it exceeds my needs.

[Bob23]

K:
   I agree but I'm always up for looking for ways to improve her. As for loving the 23, I definitely agree! Right now, mine is in the back yard, on her trailer, getting misc. winter maintainence and improvements. I even like sitting down below in the winter, dreaming of sailing. It sort of feels like home.
   I don't want to undertake the kind of improvements that David does but the more info I can get, the better. I feel the 23 in it's original state is a tough little yacht and is designed to keep her crew safe. I'd like some feedback from other 23 owners who have done extensive cruising to hear about thier experiences.
   Never owned a Catalina. my boat before "Koinonia" was a Seapearl 21, a wonderful ship in her own rite.
  bob23 out

[HideAway]

One of our first adventures on HideAway was sailing from Gulfport Fl escorting the HMS Bounty into St Petersburg. The winds were a solid 20 gusting much higher.  Encountered pounding 6 foot waves near Pinellas Point but continued to St Petersburg just in time to sail in with the Bounty as she was firing her cannons.  Trip back was uneventful right into a beautiful sunset.  A great adventure.
The next day however I found lots of water in my forward lockers.  Traced it back to the bilge which was over flowing.  Long story short-- about 5 feet of the port side had separated from the hull.  I could stick my fingers through the hull easily.  The hull protruded probably 1/2 or 3/4 inch beyond the top.    I cleaned out everything I could, bought some bolts to replace the pop rivets and applied lots of 5200.  I resealed the entire boat that I could reach.  In order to realign the hull to the top I winched the boat up to a piling in my wet slip.   That was in 1997 and we have had a dry boat ever since- well almost- broke a thru hull 5 miles off Egmont Key & had water ankle deep before I realized it was the bilge pump through hull that broke but that's another story...

Bob23-- I owned a Sea Pearl as well-- The Magic Pearl--Another great boat!

[Bob23]

Hideaway:
   Thanks for the reply. Maybe I should check my hull/deck seam. My boat has seen no ocean sailing, as far as I know but I'd like her to be as strong as possibel.
   Gee...I get upset about the half inch of water that the bilge pump leaves in the bilge!
   I loved my Seapearl... a wonderful boat but you had to know her limitations. Mine was a rare centerboard model; pointed a bit higher than the leeboards but had no room in the forward cockpit. I had planned to offset the centerboard trunk to port about 9- 12 inches and build a lightweight, removable hard cabin top over the forward cockpit opening. It wouldv'e been a neat inprovement but along came a fabulous deal on my 1985 23/2. I couldn't resist- I'd been looking for a 23 for a few years and finally one found me!
   Enjoy sailing! Here in NJ, I'm only dreaming presently and planning a launch date!
   Bob23 in "Koinonia"

[mike gartland]

When I acquired my 1989 CP 23-3 a couple of years ago it had an obvious leak along the hull-deck joint in the area of the starboard chainplates.  I pulled the rubrail and chainplates to find gaps in the joint behind each chainplate, most severe at the midpoints between the bolts (not rivets on my 1989 model).  I removed the original white duck tape that had completely disintegrated, cleaned out as much of the old adhesive as possible, resealed it with 5200, added additional SS bolts midway between the existing bolts, covered the whole thing with a layer of Gorilla Tape (industrial strength duct tape) and replaced the rub rail.  It has worked perfectly with no leaks ever since then.  Now I have developed a similar leak on the port side and will undertake the same repair later this spring when I pull the WindRush out of the water.

Mike