sailing to weather and only drifting

[jfair1954]

Good Day
Yesterday was a nice sailing day and Mr Weatherman had posted 15kn north east winds on Lake St-Louis ( Montreal ). Mr Weatherman must have been having hick ups when the wind went from 15 to 10 and then started to get back up to a steady 20 with gusts at 23-25 and some.Although we were ready and reefed, my CP 23 rudder and keel were getting less and less efficient and at one point sailing into the wind ( beating ) , the boat lost momentum and started drifting - skidding and not regaining any forward momentum.
At that point, we had one reef in the main and my 110 jib and CDI FF2 was reefed aprox 50%...Heeled just under the rubrail...
I had been in gusts before but never had I lost any forward motion...My sailing buddy instantly said I was still overpowered and he reduced headsail even more and we regained forward momentum but at the cost of some significant drifting.
I understand that a lot of details make it that a sail plan is balanced and a boat manouvrable but I am questionning if adjusting rigging is necessary ? At that point of sail , my rudder became completely useless.
Will apreciate your comments.

JF

[Cpy23ecl]

My first thought is that (assuming you have the original flat blade rudder) as you lost forward momentum your speed dropped enough that the rudder stalled and no longer gave you control of direction.

My 23 did not sail upwind well in any conditions but did do better once I replace the rudder with a ruddercraft rudder.

Possibly you were trying to point too high?

Fred

[Bob23]

JF: Your buddy is both wrong and right. You were overpowered but the best thing to do would be put a second reef in the main and leave the headsail at 50%. I have been out in 30 knots with my 23 and this works well. In high winds the 23's need more headsail and less main to keep forward motion.
  I'll also echo what Fred says about the stock flat blade rudder. When I changed mine to a foil (home made) I couldn't believe the increase in performance and she even points higher, although remember our 23's are not known for pointing high.
  How are your sails? Age? Are the blown out? When I had a new suit of sails made, again she was like a new boat! Pointed much higher, faster, more well behaved and easier to come about too.

  Hope this helps, JF.
Bob23

[brackish]

Couple of things do a google search for "going into irons" and see if that doesn't shed some light on what happened.
Reefing a furled sail to 50% makes it almost useless.  The best you can get from a furled headsail is about 20-25% and that is if you have foam luff panels in the sail.  I would try to put a second reef in the main and let the Jib out to that 20% range to see if that helps.  And yes, you may be trying to point too high.  Do you have telltales to make sure you are not trying to point too high.  Natural tendency, I do it all the time to see if I can't squeeze a mark at a channel without having to tack again.  Mostly doesn't work for me.

[BobK]

More than likely the sails were either too tight causing side-wards slipping or you were pointing too close to the wind.  Either of these will negatively affect sailing into the wind even with worn sails.
BobK

[Jon898]

If you're "heeled just under the rubrail", that's the problem.

Sailing well means sailing flat (or nearly so) especially with the limited keels on a CP.  Reduce sail, ease the sheets, don't try to point so high...all of those will help.  It may look dramatic to be heeled over on your ear, but it's not going to do anything for your leeway.

Jon

[brackish]

If you're "heeled just under the rubrail", that's the problem.

Sailing well means sailing flat (or nearly so) especially with the limited keels on a CP.  Reduce sail, ease the sheets, don't try to point so high...all of those will help.  It may look dramatic to be heeled over on your ear, but it's not going to do anything for your leeway.

Jon

While sailing a 23 with the lee rail buried is a little extreme, the very old design hull form of a 23 gives you very low initial stability and very high ultimate stability.  It won't sail flat to weather.  It tends to roll over with a light puff but lock up tight rather than capsize.  If I try to sail flat to weather it gives me zero forward motion on my intended rhumbline per tack.  Later designed boats were intended to sail flat and the hull forms are appropriate for that.

[Cats Paw]

Sounds like maybe a touch of Lee Helm. Rudder become useless and the boat is being carried with the jib?

[Bob23]

I'll echo what Brack is saying. On my 23 in light winds, I find that introducing some heel to the boat she picks up speed noticeably.
The 23's seem to like a minimal 15 degrees or so of heel, in my most humble opinion and this is based on my observations over 14 years of sailing on mine.

Jfair: Let us know how you make out, we all need to learn more, at least I know I do!!
Bob23

[jfair1954]

Good morning
I do admit that for sailing on a lake with so many windshifts and gusts,I am often overpowered and find it faster to reduce my headsail and not reefing my main when needed ( when over 15kn ). I often sail alone and not so agile as before to just jump on deck to reef the main.
The situation I referred to was different :we were 2 sailors on the boat and we had taken 1st reef at just over 15kn.Definitely would have been good to have taken 2nd reef but although I had a 2nd reefing made on the sail, I had never really installed the necessary rigging cause I never plan to go out when winds over 20kn...Mea Culpa and lesson learned !
The addition of a boom vang is also something I am looking into...I just hesitate on how to install on my tabernacle...Cant really use my mast step bolt as a pivot for a bail cause the aft end of the tabernacle was reinforced each side withh shoulder that interfere with the angle at wich the bail should be lined with the boom.
Upgrading my rudder is something I wanted to do for some years. I know many of you make your own during off season. Myself, I will buy one with minimal adjustment necessary. Unpack and go !!!!
And pointing high ( often to high I admit ) is unavoidable when re-entering the final leg to Port. I now realize my boat's limitations under certain conditions. I hope a better rudder will stabilze my course upwind  under moderate conditions.
Any ideas for new rudder are welcomed. I read once about Hutchins where  if I sent my rudder blade, it would be returned with appropriate fit ? Your ideas are welcome pls
Tks for your interest.I have had my 23 for 15 years because you guys made it a better boat!!!!

JFR on Lake St-Louis , Montreal

[brackish]

without knowledge of your Tab modification this thread has some attachment ideas. Mine uses the boomkicker bail and the rolling shackle which keeps the alignment proper no matter the boom position.

https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=3737.msg25171#msg25171

[Cpy23ecl]

I can highly recommend the ruddercraft rudder.  I replaced my 23 stock rudder with one and it was a vast improvement in performance as well as ease of use and trailering.  In addition you can add a mast crutch for trailering and/or mast raising.  In my case I went with a fixed length crutch for mast raising which definitely helped the process.

Fred