Preventing Rounding Up on Beam Reach

[slode]

Question for any seasoned Eclipse Sailors or others who have had this experience.

On our trip to the Apostle Islands a couple weeks ago we were sailing between the North bay on Sand Island out to Devils.  It was a perfect beam reach with 12-18 knot winds out of the SW.  Waves were rolling at 3' right on our beam.  About 1/3 of the way it started gusting.  Every time a hard gust hit she would round up hard.  I tried everything and could not keep the boat from rounding up in the stronger gusts.  There were times the rudder literally stalled out and she just turned upwind.  It was a bit uncomfortable to loose complete control.  At least there weren't other boats around to be concerned with.

We had a reefed main with full genoa (typically that gives me just a touch of lee helm in calmer waters in the same wind strengths)  I tried rolling in the genoa a bit but it made the weather helm and rounding up condition worse, which I guess would be expected.

Traveler all the way out and dumping the main sheet in gusts wasn't enough to prevent it.

Tried board up, board down, and about every position in between.  About 1/3 down helped but still wouldn't hold her straight.

I started watching closer behind me to try and see the gusts coming.  There were a couple I dumped the main for before they hit and we still got spun around. 

When the gusts would hit there wasn't really much heeling, maybe maxed out at 20 deg., she just made a sharp uncontrollable turn into the wind.

I'm wondering if it was just as much from the waves than from the wind.  My arm got a work out the whole way as I had to steer up every wave then back down, always steering toward the nearest crest, to keep her straight.  I've sailed the same tack in similar winds on calmer water and not had as much issue.

About the only thing I didn't try that I thought about was taking the main all the way down and going under headsail alone.  The wind didn't seem heavy enough to warrant that.  I don't believe any gusts were stronger than mid 20s. 

Any thoughts on what I could have done different?

Later in the week the gusts got into the high 30s and there was a small craft advisory.  We stayed on Madeline a few hours later than planned but decided it was safe enough to make it the dead downwind run around to big Bay for the night.  We were running with the main down and no more than 30 sq. ft. of genoa out and we were still doing 5-5.5 knots!  It was a fun & wild ride with 4-5' waves slowly passing under us!  Anyone who's ever been concerned about downwind sailing with an open transom has nothing to be concerned about.  Our feet were probably the driest part of our bodies.  All in all we had a terrific 7 day trip with two nights at the Madeline Island marina in between anchoring around the islands.

[Vectordirector]

Hi,

I found the boat under full sail to start to get excessive weather helm and would round up at 12 knots of wind (just the start of white caps).  It is a safety "feature".  It is meant to signal that the boat is over powered and needs reduced sail.  Arthur (my 87 year old sailing buddy who's been sailing for 60 years said the mast was raked too far forward (headstay too tight).  When I looked I noticed that he was right.  When my luff cracked and I installed a new furler we measured how tight to make the turnbuckle inside before putting the mast up.  Turned out I got it right and the mast was raked back to straight up now.  I only sailed the boat a few times after that but it did seem to not have as much weather helm and didn't round up as early.  It went from 12 to about 15 knots of wind before it rounded up. 

Check your mast rake.  Blown out sails can be an issue here also.  The boat will talk to you.  It tells you when something is wrong with excessive weather helm.  You may not notice it until you are suddenly really tired. 

Then Arthur taught me how to sail a keel boat.  I'd only really sailed Sunfish and Hobie Cats.  This was way different trusting the keel not panicking during a gust and popping the main.  Here is what we found.  The Eclipse is very forgiving.  It tells you when it is overpowered.  At around 12 knots of wind we would roll up the head sail and put a reef in the main. Sail reefed main only for a while and if we thought it was going to be under 18 we would open the jib.  Full Jib and reefed main worked well up to about 20.  At that point it would be too choppy and wet and we would go motor in.   The chop was the real problem here in shallow Charlotte Harbor.  Al Santini has reported spirited sailing in much higher winds in ocean rollers and inland lakes.  Hopefully he will pop in here shortly and give his thoughts.  Jib only was fun downwind but very difficult to tack in the chop jib only.  If you pull the board up on a reach you allow the boat to slide sideways which can provide a better ride, depending on the boat.  It can also be faster with less drag. 

Consider it an education.  You found one of the limitations of the design.   Trailer sailor pocket cruiser.   Toughest type of boat to design.  I think they got it really right but I feel that if you encounter those conditions frequently you have the wrong boat. 

Fair Winds,

Vectordirector   

[slode]

Vector,

What you are saying about mast rake seems to contradicts physics and the general consensus I have heard and read from all experience sailors.  Forward mast rake will reduce weather helm and can create lee helm (moves the force of the sails forward of the center of lateral resistance of the keel/rudder, pushing the bow downwind)  Put a pencil on a table and push forward of the center, the tip turns down, behind center, the tip turns up.  Goal is to balance the sail force just aft of the center point.  That's why sailing with more head sail out than main will reduce weather helm to a point.  It's a bit different when sailing upwind when heeling becomes an issue.  Too much of either sail will cause excess heeling.  I have experienced this with reefed main and full genoa, the boat heels but doesn't round up as much.  But that was not my problem.

I've found the Eclipse well balanced with the mast dead vertical, that creates just a touch of weather helm with proper sail trim.  I may have had a bit too much sail out but I only have one main reef.  And rolling in the jib just made things worse.

[alsantini]

Hi...  First a question, what sail do you have?  The original sail, you have to pull all the way up to clear the boom gallows.  It is what I started sailing with a few years back.  With this sail my mast had a slight rake forward - almost unnoticeable.  I would start out full sail until about 14, then reef the main (only one reef point).  If I was still over canvased, I would reef the genoa 1/3, then 2/3, the rolled up completely as the wind increased.  I never experienced rounding up into the wind unless I had too much sail out.  Personally I would not sail just on Genoa unless I was sailing into a slip.  The main seems to balance the boat better.  Two years ago I bought a new sail through Com Pac.  It was a "new" cut and I immediately experienced a different helm.  I could sail with more sail up in higher winds.  At this point I did re-set the mast to straight up and down.  With this sail I have not experienced rounding up either because of higher winds BUT I have experienced the opposite.  The boat now has a tendency to turn up in really light winds.  I have had people on board at the helm say, "what is going on, I can't keep it straight?"  The boat will straighten out by letting out the sail.  It is now more sensitive to being sailed over canvased.
This has probably not helped you any - sorry!  I do have one suggestion though.  I have been on an Eclipse with the shrouds too loose and was amazed that there was a lot of weather helm - not sure why.  We used my loos gauge, straightened the mast and got her tight and the weather helm disappeared (according to the owner).
If I had to guess I would say maybe too much sail?  Roll that Genoa in, flatten the sail with the boom vang as much as you can.  With a straight mast, and tight shrouds, I think it will sail just fine up into the low 20's.  This summer I was forced to sail in winds approaching 30.  I sailed with a Genoa the size of a dinner napkin,reefed main, tight boom vang, etc.  The boat handled it beautifully (better than me!) Once above 30, I pulled all sails down, clipped in, dropped anchor and 100 feet of rode and hung on.  Later on we realized that we had 45 mph gusts and 30+ steady.  The boat came out unscathed, and I came out a believer in the Com Pac Eclipse.  Sail On

[Whisper]

Hi Guys, I haven't really sailed my Eclipse in really strong winds ,so haven't had what Slode experienced.
But I think Slode is right re mast rake, if the designer got it right then the mast should be vertical .
My boat came with the mast very much overhead and that was because the boom would not clear the gallows. I've had the sail cut to correct this .
The mainsail i have is very full cut and stretched I guess with a very large roach ,so Alsantini is right in saying that his new mainsail is much flatter and better.
I think that Slode was very much overpowered and when the boat heels to 20 degrees ,due to its hull shape ie beamy and flat bottomed then the boat would have a tender to broach.
Maybe this will help
Release the boom vang ,more or less centre the boom on the gallows in order that when the main is eased the top of the mainsail leech will fall away to ease the load. Rather than having the main sheet traveller all the way out to the ends of the gallows.
Pull the centreboard all the way up , remember the boat still has that keel to trip on.
As soon as you feel extra pressure or at least anticipate the gust coming bear away downwind to a broad reach, with the pressure. With the flat bottom the boat would maybe start to plane but at least would level out and surf. Then retain your original course when the gust has passed.
It's a common practise with sailing dinghies.
When reaching people tend to head into the wind when the boat gets overpowered as they would when going to windward. I'm not suggesting that you guys do that .
I'm surprised when people say that a boat automatically goes head to wind and that is a safety valve.
I don't think so , I think all boats should be able to sail the proper course by reducing sail Etc.
I've sailed boats for 65 years and raced some terrible designed to the  international  offshore rule boats and they were pigs to sail off the wind but most times anticipation and good crew work kept them from broaching . Not always though.
Spring has arrived in Tasmania and when I return home in October hope to be sailing again.
It was good to hear that the cockpit remained dry in that very hard running.
Cheers Des

[slode]

So after much thought about this I am going to blame it on the wave factory playing a role in how the boat handled the forces of the wind gusts added to the whole equation.

Reducing head sail wouldn't make sense here as the boat was not healing severely and more head sail = more force pushing the bow downwind = less rounding up.

When gusts hit, even from the same direction as the wind was before it, it will shift apparent wind aft.  Regardless of position of the main, the force from the main is turning the boat into the wind.  Dumping the main will reduce heeling but does not completely rid of the forces turning the boat around the center of resistance of the keel and hull.  In calmer waters I can typical overcome that by steering slightly downwind in the gusts.  But with the waves I already had to steer downwind when riding down a wave to keep her straight in the sustained winds.  When a gust hit, and I was coming down a wave, I ran out of rudder to keep her pointed straight.  Every time this happened the rudder would cavitate and stall out and she'd make a pretty sharp turn.  I can't say I remember being able to control any gusts that hit when riding up a wave, but I can't recall any that threw me around either.  What I know for sure is that when the ones that did throw me around hit I was already steering away from the wind.  I have some understanding of the physics of the wave forces, but it's as clear as a good thick ale right now so I won't get into that.  I need a few more ales to make it as clear as water...

I think the only way the boat would have handled this better is with the main down or a much deeper reef.

And a side note regarding the reason for wanting some weather helm in your tuning. The "safety factor" is somewhat legitimate but there are arguments this could be an unsafe thing (rounding up into a passing boat).  The real reason is that when the rudder is pointed slightly into the wind, it is generating lift, pushing the stern upwind.  This added lift, in combination with the lift from the keel, is all pushing the boat windward resulting in more forward progress when beating.  A boat tuned with slight weather helm will make better windward progress than the same boat with dead neutral helm. 

[Whisper]

The waves would contribute to the rounding up problem , but as suggested in my experience ,as the gusts hit when reaching ,bearing away will make the apparent wind go forward as your speed increases and you start to surf riding the waves instead of them fighting your boat.
Reducing vang and main sheet pressure frees up the top of the sail when the gust hits, dumping excess wind and this would help with the heeling force.
If the rudder stalls maybe the blade could be angled aft a little .
Many people like a little weather helm to assist the boat always trying to point higher when going to windward but it also means the rudder blade is also causing drag counteracting that pressure. Equals slow.
Keeping the boat in the groove is easier with a well balanced boat.