Installing New Outboard Bracket Questions?

[cruz-in]

Hi Team,

Well I have my new-to-me Yamaha  6 HP 4 Stroke 2 Cylinder....and it is beautiful! It is an '06 motor that has only been used sparingly in fresh water. It is just amazing how quiet and smooth it is. At idle, walk 5 or 10 feet away and you do not notice it running.  The wife (of the gent I brought it from) came outside while the engine was idling in a tub, she walked up, stood a few feet from the idling motor, and asked: "Were you all able to get it running?".  It is that quiet!

Sorry I digresst from the intent of this post. I am just pretty excited about my motor.

Planning to install an new heavy duty Panther motor mount and I had a few questions:

1) For those that installed a new motor mount, what did you use as a backing plate?

2) If you did not use a backing plate, did you use fender washers on the inside?

I ask because the graceful curvature of our Suncat's transom seems to make the use of either a backing plate or fender washers problematic. It seems that either fender washers or a flat plate will only contact the inside of the transom at a few pressure points (due to the curve of the transom), defeating the purpose of spreadding the load through the use of fender washers or a backing plate. I noticed the manufacture used  slightly oversized washers (definately not fender washers) on the inside when mounting the boats original motor mount.

Also, does anyone know the thickness of the plywood in the transom?

Thanks
Dan

[Shawn]

Dan,

My Sabre was an inboard so the transom in it was not reinforced for an outboard at all. No plywood. It did have reinforcement in it for the backstay but that was a triangle pattern of different thickness fiberglass that was not flat.

I used two 1'x2'x1" fiberglass plates as backing.

I sanded the paint off the transom glass and got it down to bare glass. Then I epoxied in multiple layers of fiberglass mat  (cut to size) to level out the transom reinforcement.



On top of that I put another layer of mat and then epoxied the fiberglass plates onto that.



On the outside of the transom I put a 1'x1'x1/2" fiberglass plate between the mount and the transom.

Drilled through it all and then bolted it all together with thick fender washers on the inside.

If you are adding a backing plate to yours if the transom isn't completely flat you could use mutliple layers of mat to help fill in low spots. Fiberglass plates are nice because you never have to worry about rot with them.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#fiberglass-plates/=13gznt7

Shawn

[cruz-in]

Thanks Shawn,

After your input and lots of thought here is how I am considering proceeding:

1) Find suitable backing plate. A nice piece of SS or anodized aluminum.

2) Pre drill the holes for themotot mount bolts.

3) Place backing plate in position. Librally apply thickened epoxy to the back of the mounting plate. I mean lots.

4) Using only the bolts (no engine mount yet), draw down the backing plate only till thickened epoxy is oozing from all sides between the back of the mounting plate and the transom. This should only be a light tightening of the bolts. Just enuff to spread the epoxy.

5) Remove bolts once epoxy begins to set....dont't wait too long or they will be stiuck in.

This should provide a backing plate that, via the gap filling epoxy between the curved transom and the backing plate, spreads the load.

So what do you all think? All inputs are appreciated. Considering using 5200 in place of Epoxy.

Thanks
Dan .

5)

[Shawn]

I think that method is going to be very messy. You will be getting epoxy oozing out of the mounting holes onto the transom and so on. Also a large amount of epoxy can get a little scary as the more you use the hotter it gets while it cures and the faster it cures. Mixing up large batches of thickened epoxy might be curing before you get it as thick as you want. To get to peanut butter consistency with 3 pumps of West System takes about 4 or 5 rounded teaspoons of filler.

How uneven is the area you are working on? Multiple layers of mat will act as a sponge and compress as needed to fill in small areas.


Are you putting reinforcements over top of a factory plywood reinforcement? If so I'd just add more glass to that if you wanted additional strength. You will need to sand off any paint to get down to glass for good adhesion. Then just cut a number of layers of mat to overlap the factory reinforcement that spread back out onto the transom to extend surface area. Either wet them out in place or do it on a paint roller tray and then position them. If you do it in place the first layer is the hardest (and it isn't that hard) as everything starts out dry. Additional layers go on easier as they stick to the already wet lower layer and help to wet out the new layer. Not including prep (sanding) you could add 5 or 6 layers of mat pretty quickly to the transom. Maybe 45 minutes of actual time spend on it, assuming you have decent access to the transom. Be sure to wear a respirator.

Before you do *anything* like this be sure your plywood is in good shape. You don't want to go through all this trouble and realize the plywood is water logged and rotting and have to fix that.

When you put on your new mount drill the new holes oversized, maybe 1.5-2x the needed size. Put a bent nail in a drill and use it to route out the plywood in the new holes a 1/4" inch in or so. Then completely fill the bolt holes with thickened epoxy (fill the old holes the same way). Wait a day for the epoxy to cure then drill the proper size mounting holes through the epoxy. This will give you a second layer of protection for your plywood core. Chamfer the drill holes as that will help prevent cracking in the gel coat as well as allow more sealant to seal the hole. I used Butyl tape on mine, stuff is fantastic. 

" Considering using 5200 in place of Epoxy. "

You are trying to increase the structural strength of your transom. 5200 isn't strong and isn't meant to bridge large areas.

Shawn

[cruz-in]

Thanks shawn,

just crrawled into the storage locker to get a look at the insside of the transom. This is one heafty buiilt transom (as is the whole suncat)! The plywood core looks to be in excellent shape. The current motor mount hass been in service for 16 years with a 50 pound motor hanging on it, and Com-Pac used 4 bolts with normal washers. Same as the ladder that has carried my 190 pounds up/down many a time.

I sure beleive that using fender washers and six or eight bolts will hold the new motor mount  and 90 poound outboard just great. I would concentrate the bolts near the top of the mount; spacing just enuff to accomadate the fender washers.

[Shawn]

"I sure beleive that using fender washers and six or eight bolts will hold the new motor mount  and 90 poound outboard just great."

Why so many bolts? One 3/8" bolt is strong enough to lift your Suncat. 4 bolts is plenty. Just use fender washers or some other form of backing plate. Also consider putting a plate between your mount and the transom. That will help to distribute the force over a wider area too. Weight of the engine will be trying to pull the transom out, thrust of the engine will be trying to push it in.

Also be sure to check your measurements to verify if the Yamaha can tilt up when your mount is all the way up. My Suzuki's power head moves about 13" forward of the  engine mounting plate when it is tilted. My engine mounting plate is only 10" away from the transom when it is fully lifted. As the mount is lowered it moves further away from the transom. I think you said you are going to use a Panter Mount... those look like rebadged Garelicks. I have a list of all the dimensions on the Garelick mounts I can email you if you like.

Shawn

[cruz-in]

Thanks Shawn,

How did you get the paint off the rough fiberglass interior of the boat?

[Shawn]

Orbital sander, 60 grit sandpaper, shop vac attached to sander and time...lots of time.

If you have good access and don't mind a much larger mess a grinder with a sanding disc on it is *dramatically* faster at removing material. I had to do a bunch of my transom by feel so I couldn't use the grinder as I was afraid I'd go right through the transom. Grinder worked great on my hull though when I closed off the strut area and prop shaft hole.

Shawn

[ghsfusioneer]

Here's a thought no one has mentioned yet:  How about an adapter plate that fits the existing Suncat's transom bolt pattern and contour, and has studs in the right places for the new outboard bracket?  That way if you change your mind or if the heavier outboard doesn't work out, all you have to do is unbolt and replace the original bracket.  The plate could be made of metal and fiberglass and can easily be precisely contoured by letting a resin putty set in the gap between the new adapter plate and the hull... using lots of mold release (wax paper?) so it won't stick to the hull.  This will also do away with the need to work in the almost inaccessible stern cavity of the Suncat - you would only need to get to the existing bolts.  The thickness of the adapter is up to you, but an inch or so shouldn't make much difference in boat handling, balance, etc.  .. Just a thought.
..Fusioneer

[cruz-in]

Thanks for the input team.

The inaccesability of the inside of the transom on the suncaat certainly presents an unique problem to doing this job.

Panther (maker of the mount I intend to use) says if the transom is less than 2" thick, a backing plate must be used.

So a backing board it is:

1) I plan to use G-10 Fiberglass epoxy laminate as the backing board. This is commonly used as backing plate for a windlass on large yachts. It is amazing durable stuff.

2) To access the inside of the transom, I plan to remove the shroud around the tilller handle. The thing with like a thousand screws holding it to the fibergalss topsides of the Suncat.  It looks like this should give me room to access the rear of the transom in the vacinity of the motor bracket

3) I plan to use the Panther Stainless Steel 4 Stroke Motor Bracket. It appears to be the only SS  motor bracket rated for a 4 stroke. Additionally, as near as I can measure with my micrometer, it's hole pattern is identical to the existing bracket! Link to motor bracket

http://96bda424cfcc34d9dd1a-0a7f10f87519dba22d2dbc6233a731e5.r41.cf2.rackcdn.com/panthermarineproducts/outboard-motor-brackets/lightweight-4-stroke-motor-bracket-55-0408ss/55-0408SS_Spec_Sheet.pdf

4) Got to thinking about it and I am not sure why I need to remove the paint. I plan to take my G-10 Fiberglass epoxy laminate, and using a thick layer of thickened epoxy to fill the voids, mount it to the inside of the transom using small wood screws. Let the epoxy setup and drill the existing holes thru the epoxy laminate and mount bracket. Once the motor bracket is bolted on I don't care if the custom fit backing board sticks to the painted surface or not. It will be held in place with 4 stainless steel bolts/nuts with fender washers.

I would reallly like to hear you all's thoughts and constructive-critism of my plan.

Thanks for your time
Dan

[Shawn]

Dan,

Just make sure that mount is going to give you enough vertical travel and allow your engine to tilt forward with it all the way up. Mount your Yamaha on a stand and measure how far forward it moves when you tilt it. Figure out the position of the engine with the mount all the way up and make sure you aren't going to have any interference in tilting the engine. If you will you would need to add a spacer between the mount and transom to give you the clearance.

That mount looks like the Garelick 71033.

http://garelick.com/files/12.185.pdf

If you are looking for stainless this mount is interesting too:

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/691/outboard-motor-mount-three-spring.cfm

It has over 17" of vertical travel and they have 3 versions of it with differing numbers of springs to really try to counterbalance the weight of an outboard. I think these are make by Gaurhauer. With that much vertical travel you may be able to get the engine completely out of the water without having to use any tilt at all.

Shawn

[cruz-in]

Once again, thanks for the help. That does look like a gret bracket....and the ability to match it to the weight of the outboard is really nice.

I have emailed to get them to send me the owhers/install manual.

One other question, I asked them was if the bracket was rated for a 4 stroke. It did not specifically say on the website.  I figured as long as the weight rating was good one could use either a 2 or 4 stroke. Both Panther and Garelick literature tells me, with a 4 stroke, I mut specifically use a bracket designed for a 4 stroke.

I will keep all appraised of what they say.

Dan

[Shawn]

" I figured as long as the weight rating was good one could use either a 2 or 4 stroke. Both Panther and Garelick literature tells me, with a 4 stroke, I mut specifically use a bracket designed for a 4 stroke. "

The four stroke mounts typically are wider to deal with the torque of the motors. Pretty sure that Gaurhauer mount is for a four stroke engine, they are used with lots of four strokes and are used to upgrade a bunch of older Catalinas. I think they make them for Catalina. I found that mount after I had already purchased the Garelick mount. If I had found it first I likely would have gone with it due to the 2" increased lift compared to my Garelick mount.

If that Panther mount is a relabled Garelick mount they are conflicting with each other. Panther says 4 stroke, Garelick says 2 stroke.

The attached is an example of the dimensions of my Suzuki. You can see when it tilts forward it needs 12.2 inches ahead of the mounting bracket. On my mount the bracket is only 10" away from the transom when it is fully up.

Shawn

[cruz-in]

Wow Shawn, you are right. that is one great bracket.

I just had a long chat with the folks from Catalina Direct. This gent really know his stuff with respect to the outboardd bracket.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/707/outboard-motor-mount-four-spring.cfm

He suggested the larger one (it uses thicker stainless and has a longer bracket to soread the load).  He ran me thru how to remove one or two of the springs to get appropiate spring tension for my 87 pound outboard.

Real interesting story behind these brackets. Catalins Direct put out a call for sailboat brackets to find one to sell. Had lots come in for evaluation and narrrowed it down to the predecessor to this one and the big dude Garelick. They chose this one for a number of reasons, among them the big dude Garelick Aluminum one wieghed 50% more and had 2 less inches of lift. After chosing this one, they had it redesigned to replace all the plastic bushings with brass ones. It was really refreshing to call tech suport and get someone who really understood the prodcut. He walked me thru the design and features.

Only downside is, if you are not buying for a Catalina boat, the item is non-returnable. He explained they had a large percentage of returns from non=catalina folks. Since they are not knowledgeable of my Suncat, they cannot gaurentee the fit. Sounds reasonable to me.

[cruz-in]

Yesterday UPS delivered the Catalina Direct Motor Mount and wow what a nicely built unit. All thick stainless steel, bronze bushings, and nice looking welds. In my search I have had mounts from both Garelick and Panther. I returned them both. While nice mounts, I was not satisfied with either. IMHO, none of them was near as nice as this one. It is one great looking piece of quality stainless steel. IMHO, at $350 the Catalina Direct is a bargain.

One issue with the mount:  it is spefically designed for the catalina transom.  The mount board has no angle adjustments. This may causee me to need to use a wedge to get the mptpr board more perpendicular to the water.

I will post picts once I get it installed.