Winter project--- electrical system upgrade

[Tbeeman]

I'm taking on the challenge of upgrading the electric of my 1989 23.  I'm adding a radio, vhf, a battery bank of 4-6v golf cart batteries, solar, new bilge pump, autopilot, 12v outlet, usb charger, and a new 12v switch panel . Does anyone have any pics or schematics of their upgrade wiring?  Any recommendations for a switch panel? I am currently reading caseys sailboat electrics simplified before I get started.  Thanks.

[brackish]

I got some Pics but not sure they would be relevant to your boat.  Compac changed the location of the main panel with the IV, put it under the first companionway step.  I've added a lot including the VHF and stereo in the pic and the bilge pump and night vision courtesy lights above the steps.  Maybe you can get some ideas.  The panel is stock Compac.



behind the scenes.  The relocation does make it easy to get to when you want to work on it or add something.

[Shawn]

How big of a solar system are you going with? I had a 40w panel on Serenity and it kept the group 29 battery topped up just fine. Converting to LED lighting makes more sense (electrically) then going with a large bank if you have decent solar charging.

I added a panel to the existing one. Bought a smallish panel off of ebay and then ended up cutting it down and changing out the switches to fit the existing area better.



Instruments, VHF and autopilot where off existing accessory switch. On the new switches one was for pressure water, one was for interior red lighting, one was a spare and one was to connect or disconnect the Sailpro's alternator from the battery. The unswiched fuse fed the accessory plug and the charger for the handheld radio. Charging station is what is next to the switch panel.




There are now dual accessory ports. One side is standard 12v, other side is dual USB. I'm going to be using them in my new boat. Would have put that into Serenity if I had seem them at the time. Very inexpensive on ebay.

When working on the electrical system get a headlamp. Also consider using something to cover the bilge area and some sort of support to hold your back/head up as it gets tiring under there.

Shawn

[HeaveToo]

I will be rewiring and upgrading my boat this spring, when the weather breaks.  When I went to work this morning it was 17 degrees!

You may want to consider the weight of your upgrades.  If you are doing 6V batteries then you may want to just do 2 of these in a series.  That will give you 230 amp hours.  Unless you are running a refrigeration then you don't really need more than that.

My last boat was a Catalina 30 and I did extended cruises in her (14 days or so).  My battery bank was 200 amp hours and I had a battery monitoring system in the boat.  I rarely dropped below 90%.  I did get a charge from a 30 amp alternator but that was only an hour or so on a normal day.  I was running autopilot constantly, GPS, VHF, Stereo, and occasionally an inverter to charge and run a laptop. 

Consider this...A 6V battery weighs close to 80 pounds.  Two of those suckers will weight around 160 pounds (the weight of a person, all be it a smaller person).  This could change the balance of your boat by doing this.

According to Jerry Hutchinson, you can do 2 group 27 batteries in the starboard lazzerette without upsetting the balance of the boat.  I would stick with the 2 6V batteries and carry the 230 amp hours of juice.

If you are adding solar then consider the size of your panel.  I intend to do a 100 watt solar panel.  It will then run into a MPPT charge controller.  MPPT will give you more efficiency and it is the best charge controller. 

Either way you are placing a lot of amp hours with that 100 watt panel.  I intend to put the flexible panel on top of my bimini.  If this setup is favorable, this next winter I will fabricate a new bimini skin and make velcro attachments for the solar panel.

All LED is a big savings when it comes to amp hours.  This is also a consideration.

Figure out what your budget is for amp hour consumption.  Then figure out how long you are going to be out.  Of the time you are going to be out how much of it is at anchor and how much of it is at a marina.  Then consider your options.  If you plan to go to a marina every so often then you really don't need as much solar.  You could go a few days out and then plug in at a marina.

I have been spending a lot, and I mean a lot, of time reading and planning my upgrade.  The idea of changing from Group 27 to 6V batteries just threw me for a loop and caused me quite a few more hours of research.  Also remember to place your batteries correctly when you put them in the boat.  Consider a previous post by Brackish for information on this and a good link explaining placement of batteries.

Last piece of advise that I have:  Use good components that are designed for marine use.  Use good tools with these components.  You can save money by shopping around and also using ebay, but be careful on what you buy.  Make sure your components are marine grade pre-tinned.  Using adhesive heat shrink butt connectors is also a good move.  I am using a lot of pre-tinned 14 gauge duplex wire.

Shawn had a good idea with the second panel (I did steal that idea).  Another idea floating out there that I am stealing is using clear shrink wrap and a label maker to label your wires.  Search the current topics about the labeling the wire post.

Considering adding a battery On/Off switch.  This is Similar to a battery selector switch.  Your battery bank would go from the batteries, to the switch, and then to the Panels or a bus bar.  This allows you to kill all of the power coming out of the batteries, theoretically.  The only wires that go DIRECTLY to your batteries are the battery cables for hooking them up, the alternator, and maybe a bilge pump.  Do not forget to correctly fuse the bilge pump. 

[Tbeeman]

I have a 40w panel I used last year with a regulator.  The 12v deep cycle was always adequately  charged, but wasn't running anything but lights and 2-12v plugs. I will be switching to all led lights except the cabin interior - I just like the ambiance they project.

Reading through caseys book, he went into using 4-6V instead of 2 -12v.  I was originally planning on using 2-12v but may be a little overzealous - still haven't researched enough.   I have not used an autohelm yet but i heard the suck up the juice.  Between this and the radio, I was worried 12v would not be enough.  When not sailing we usually head for the beach or inlet for the day.  The radio would be used alot powering 2-6x9s at 25w max.  Most days its just me sailing on the mississippi during the day so my amp hours would be low. I do need to be fully self sufficient, the marina I am at is very primitive so no electric hook ups and I don't want to lug those batteries home to charge them.  I don't have a motor with an alternator yet.  That is in the works too for this spring.   My biggest concern is when I trailer up to lake michigan this summer.  I want the electrical system to be adequate for a 3 day trip.  Somewhere i  noted that you should have 150% of amp hours needed.  For example if you use 40A for 3 hrs = 120AH, you should have 300AH capacity.  For a compac with these add-ons for a days use, how much AH are normally used?? I know, not easily answered but a guestimate for a newb and safety sake.

I am seriously considering building a box over the starboard shelf to house the vhf, radio, plugs and panel. I am adding a battery switch. I have a similar set up now like shawns but fewer switches. I will need to add on.

Has anyone seen batteries placed at the foot of the starboard berth.  I like the idea of having the starboard lazzerette free of electronics.
Finally
How did you group your loads for each switch.  I was looking at an 8 switch panel but I am having trouble figuring out what loads to pair per switch.
I was thinking this:
1. Nav lights - Bow, stern, steaming
2. Cabin - nightlight, cabin lights, 2 fans,
3. Radio/MP3
4. VHF
5. Autopilot
6. Mast light

still have USB, 2-12v outlets, Depthfinder, compass light and something else i am sure if forgot.  Thanks.
 

[HeaveToo]

It is so much easier to wire in a second panel.  If money is not an issue then you can get a blue seas circuit breaker with 8 spots.  http://www.starmarinedepot.com/blue-sea-8385-panel-dc-8-position-horizontal.html?gclid=CP61mJijisMCFUY8gQodxwwAgA

If you plan to use solar then calculate it into your plans.  I probably do a bit more extended cruising then some and I have gotten by for years with 200 amp hours.  This is running GPS, VHF, Radio, 12V fan all night, anchor light (Previous boat was incandescent), small inverter from time to time for laptop, and a lot of other things.  I charged off of a 30 amp alternator and that did keep things up (especially when I motored a lot).

I spent 6 days and 5 nights out with my Compac 23.  I had only 1 group 27 battery.  I ran my autohelm sparingly and I was careful with electronics but I was okay for that cruise.  I do charge off of my outboard alternator BUT, it doesn't produce that much power.  I spend the majority of my time under sail.

I cruise pretty power hungry.  With 2 6V golf Cart batteries (approx 230 amp hours) that is plenty of power.  Back that with a 100 Watt solar panel and I am producing a lot of power back in.  If you already have a small solar panel why not add a second panel that is about 100 watts.  That will be more than enough power in the system to cruise hard for weeks and not need a marina.

Back to the autohelm.  I use the crap out of these things.  The power that they use varies.  It depends on point of sail, sea state, the sensitivity, and a few other things.  That being said it spends most of it's time on standby.  Only when the motor runs does it use power.  If you had a following sea and the tiller pilot was constantly fishing back and forth it could use some power, but usually you will be steering in those conditions because it is a pain in the butt to run the autohelm like that.  Mine does short bursts that are like a second or two (remember that sail trim is important to balance out the boat and require less course correction).

The biggest draw, by far, on a cruising sailboat is refrigeration.  Most of us in a 23 foot boat won't run that.  Carry a cooler and use ice.  You will use considerably less power.  Besides, where I cruise, I am into a dock every other day for ice and gas.

If you are doing long trips you may consider getting a 6 gallon tank.  The information is here and you can search and find that information.  Mine was most helpful and I like having that amount of fuel (I also carry a 2 gallon jerry jug).

Next question....How often will you sail after dark.  I rarely do this and I view my navigation lights as a back-up system.  It pays to be into an anchorage before dark (we have to worry about crab pots more than anything else).  In the summer we face storms that pop up frequently after 5pm also. 

I have a great anchor light that the Previous Owner installed.  It draws hardly any current (it is LED).  It is reasonably priced too.  http://www.westmarine.com/buy/davis-instruments--mini-amp-mega-light--P009_277_003_501

VHF uses hardly any current unless you are transmitting.  Unless you are reading a novel over the VHF, you should be okay with that.

 

[Shawn]

" I have not used an autohelm yet but i heard the suck up the juice.  Between this and the radio, I was worried 12v would not be enough. "

Your system will always be 12v. Even with (4) 6v batteries. You will have two paralleled banks of two series batteries.

If you don't understand that last sentence hold off on your electrical upgrades right now until that sentence makes sense.

Voltage is not what you need to consider. Amp/hour capacity is. What is the amp hour capacity of each 6v battery? The group 29 I had was about 90 amp/hours. You shouldn't run a deep cycle below 50% charge so that gave me 45 amp hours to work with. Amp hours are pretty simple. In essence that means I can pull 1 amp from the battery for 45 hours straight or 45 amps for 1 hour, 2 amps for 22.5 hours... etc...etc.

"I will be switching to all led lights except the cabin interior - I just like the ambiance they project. "

Once you convert your nav. lighting your cabin lighting is going to be your biggest energy hog of all. One bulb was more draw than my autopilot.

"The radio would be used alot powering 2-6x9s at 25w max. "

You need to know the current draw of the radio, not the max wattage of the speakers.

"I do need to be fully self sufficient, the marina I am at is very primitive so no electric hook ups and I don't want to lug those batteries home to charge them.  I don't have a motor with an alternator yet."

A 40w panel will take a *long* time to recharge a huge bank. That is bad for battery life. In full sun you get about 2.5 amps out of the solar panel. Most say you should calculate on having 5 hours of full charging a day. That means you can put a little more than 12.5 amp/hours back into your battery bank a day. With a huge bank that is very depleted you are looking at taking weeks to recharge. That will reduce your battery life quite a bit. The better approach is being more efficient with what you burn.

"1. Nav lights - Bow, stern, steaming"

No, steaming needs to be a different switch. If you are sailing at night you don't want the steaming light on. Add the compass light to the nav lights. If nav lights are on your are going to want the compass light on anyway.

For the same reason if you have an anchor light on the mast (make sure that is LED) it needs to be on its own switch. I just hung an LED version outside using the 12v accessory plug.


"3. Radio/MP3
4. VHF
5. Autopilot"

You would need to look at the max draw of the radio. If it is 8a or higher (remember that is max, most of the time it will be much less) perhaps you want it on its own circuit. VHF and autopilot can be combined easily.

Depthfinder could be on an "instruments" switch if desired or on 4+5 as you will still be below a 10amp fuse.

My suggestion would be to rewire if desired but hold off on the huge batteries. You really don't have the draw needed to get anywhere near that big, nor the charging capacity to keep them healthy.

Shawn

[Shawn]

"If you are adding solar then consider the size of your panel.  I intend to do a 100 watt solar panel.  It will then run into a MPPT charge controller.  "

I put a 100w panel on my Sabre but didn't go with MPPT as the controller would have cost more than the panel. Wasn't sure there was enough of a benefit there for that sized array. 100w panel fits way better on the Sabre.

BTW, 100w is fantastic and really opens up options. As a test last summer I left my Dometic 'fridge/cooler running all week and the panel was able to recover my battery (single group 27) each day from the draw during the night. I also have an echo-charger keeping my reserve battery topped up. I may expand the house bank to two 27s this year and keep the reserve battery with the echo-charger.

" Using adhesive heat shrink butt connectors is also a good move.  I am using a lot of pre-tinned 14 gauge duplex wire."

I also like using bigger heat shrink tubing with liquid electrical tape. Put the liquid tape over the connection and while it is still setting get the heat shrink over it and shrink it down. Really makes a great seal IME.

"The only wires that go DIRECTLY to your batteries are the battery cables for hooking them up, the alternator, and maybe a bilge pump."

Charge controller should go directly to the battery as well. If the controller has a low voltage cut off feature I'd put the bilge pump there.

Shawn

[Shawn]

"It is so much easier to wire in a second panel.  If money is not an issue then you can get a blue seas circuit breaker with 8 spots"

That won't fit in the factory location. Moving the electrical panel elsewhere becomes a much bigger job.

"The power that they use varies."

Yup, I think they are rated for a max of about 2 amps. But like you said it isn't moving the tiller continuously. Even if it moved it 1 second out of 4 that is going to be only slightly over 1/2 an amp hour.

"The biggest draw, by far, on a cruising sailboat is refrigeration."

A smaller unit is a pretty substantial draw (my 40w panel couldn't run it indefinitely)but that is also cyclical like the autopilot. Mine is roughly 15 amp/hours per day.

I think incandescent lighting is right there too though depending upon what bulbs are in the boat. Serenity had (I think) 1.2 amp bulbs in the four interior lights. Turn on all four of those for 4 hours at night and the total draw would be more than my little fridge running for 24 hours. Have another burning all night for an anchor light and that about doubles the draw.

Shawn

[HeaveToo]

Shawn....You are right about the charge controller.  Also, if you have an on-board AC charger it goes directly to the battery.

A horizontal 8 gang circuit breaker won't fit in that space?  I measured it and checked it when I was thinking about doing that.  There is also a slightly smaller 6 gang circuit breaker that will probably fit there.

LED cabin lights and anchor lights are a must to conserve power.  LED NAV lights would be nice too, but if you don't run much at night there is no need for that expense.

MPPT Chargers are expensive.  That being said, here is one that is reasonably priced by a descent company:  http://shop.pkys.com/product.asp?itemid=2779&gclid=CPSfkPySxMICFcvm7AodARQA3w

Another suggestion that I may eventually do is to add a Victron Battery Monitor:  http://shop.pkys.com/product.asp?itemid=2810&gclid=CMz207K0isMCFUQ7gQodgVIAaQ

[Shawn]

"LED NAV lights would be nice too, but if you don't run much at night there is no need for that expense."

If you use replacement LEDs in the existing fitting it isn't terribly expensive. I did the Sabre nav lights for $30 and it has separate green and red enclosures. On the 23 it would be $20 plus shipping. Warm white festoon for the front and bright white festoon for the rear.

I have the bulbs for steaming and the anchor light (on top of mast) but not sure I'm ready to try climbing that to change them just yet.

http://marinebeam.com

I have considered a battery charge monitor but not sure I have the need. The Balmar looks really good too but expensive.

Shawn

[HeaveToo]

Battery Monitor Information:  http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_monitor

Balmar Monitor:  http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/smart_gauge

The Balmar Monitor is a nice one but $$$$$$

[brackish]

For a compac with these add-ons for a days use, how much AH are normally used?? I know, not easily answered but a guestimate for a newb and safety sake.

I can't answer that specifically but can give you a practical experience answer.  I've done four day cruises, starting with full charge on with two batteries with a total of 165 AH capacity and have not drawn them down to the point that equipment would not work.  That would include all you are talking about plus GPS chartplotter and pressure water.  I would estimate that I ran the motor about an hour a day not purposely to charge but because I needed it. I ran it at about 4K rpm to get the most out of charging.  Instead of my anchor light which is still incandescent I use a high power LED lantern that I hoist half way up the backstay.  This is better anyway because my anchor light is often in the trees where I anchor and can't be clearly seen top of mast.  My two cabin lights are also still incandescent and I used them sparingly.  I have a couple of LED clamp on lights that I clip to the bulkhead cutout between the main and forward cabins and I use them more than the mounted cabin lights.  In the winter I use candle light in canning jars a lot when conditions are calm enough to do so.  I have a very powerful deck light that I don't use much because it is also still incandescent.

The next mast down opportunity, I'll probably change everything to LED.