foam and flotation and implementation

[Liane]

Hi Everyone

SO, from poking around the site, I'm realizing I might not have enough foam in my boat for flotation...

I know one side of the underside of the cockpit rail is missing foam altogether, as the other side has some.

Bought some liquid expanding 2 lb foam from the sailboat folks for that -- any suggestions as to how to get it in there with the boat UPRIGHT?  (this is the liquid stuff, not the spray foam).  Thought about fastening a tray beneath the whole length, but hard to regulate how much ends up where -- worried about the force of the foam cracking out my cockpit decking/rail  from underneath.

Also, is there supposed to be a block of foam under the cockpit floor for support???  I got nuthin.

Thanks,

Liane

[mgoller]

Hi Liane,
You're really going at it.  Good for you.  Yeah there should be a solid chunk of foam for support under the cockpit floor.  Someone took it out.  Might be OK to leave it that way.  Get 3-4" thick foam at a hardware and cut it to size and cram it under.  Then use expanding foam to take up the slack.  There are some pictures of my stock 16 in the gallery showing what the stock foam looks like.

Bad news.  From what I have heard and calculated, you wont get enough foam in your CP 16 to keep it afloat if you intend to sink it.  That's sort of the territory when you get into a cruiser.  Dinghy's are different;  they usually have a lot of flotation and little storage or cabin space.  They are typically lightly ballasted and can capsize.  That's why they have the flotation.  Just try to capsize a CP 16.  I don't know how you would with 450 lbs. of ballasted keel.
I suppose if you ran aground really hard on rocks going 5 knots you might punch a hole in your hull.  Maybe.  But you would know about it and be close to shore or at least in shallow water.
Stick to the original design the way Clark Mills intended the boat to be and to be used and you'll be fine.
Even if you took on water by running the rail under,  the self bailing cockpit is going to empty.  To get water into the cabin that way would take some kind of giant wave from abeam and a mighty blow with all sails trimmed in tight.  Even then I doubt it.
Trust the boat and then learn to trust your skills.
OK, so you still want to put foam in.  Under the rails and under the cockpit is about it unless you want to lose space in the cabin.  You could confine really light duty garbage bags with some supports (plywood) and fill the garbage bags in areas where you want foam.  This will make tearing them out easier if you change your mind.  Remove the supports when the foam is cured and you will have a tidy job.
If all else fails get a self inflating PFD.

[Liane]

Hey mgoller

that's great advice, thank you.  how does this +/- rating system work, by the way.  Is it helpful if I add a + when I get great advice?  Does this serve some purpose?  I'm new here, I don't know. 

SO:  my fear is that I'll tip the boat over sideways, and it'll be floating on its side for a bit, then sink.  My only sailing experience is with a catamaran (sp?), which I tipped a few times.  Not hard to get back up, doesn't sink.  Really, I just don't want to lose the boat.  I'm a great swimmer, totally comfortable in the water, not worried about that.  Just don't want to lose my boat.  That would suck.

Will it tip easily?  If so, will it sink?  What's the best way to right it if it does tip?  Or am I worrying about something that just doesn't happen easily?

The foam in the garbage bag idea is brilliant.  But if I don't really need the foam, I'd rather not mess with it.  Was there foam under the rails originally?

Thanks for your help!

Liane

[B.Hart]

 Hi liane,  mgoller is right about tipping a 16, if you could get water comeing over the rail,into the cockpit, into the cabin,  the sails will dump the and the boat will come about. The 16 is very foregiving to novice salors,you cant tip a 16 like other small boats that don't have ballast. good luck and have fun sailing.

[Craig Weis]

Like any Com-Pac Lane the 16 will go down when filled with water. Forget the flotation stuff, who has the space?
So when the going gets rough, button her up. Drop board, front hatch, reef, sail her loosely, don't haul in and scrub off some 'drive' by letting the sheet out. Put tell-tails on the sails so you can see them working. Trust your boat. She won't knock down. It will only feel like it. Have fun be smart. skip.

[mgoller]

Liane,
The 16 was designed like a lifeboat.  It is rounded at the front and rear and sides.  It is generally shaped like a wine glass with almost half (42%) of the boats weight hanging at the bottom.  It will roll and tip to about 15 degrees and then get very stiff. 
Take a wine glass and float it in your sink.  Now bump it around.  The weight on the bottom keeps it from tipping to the point where it will take on water.
My Com-Pac 19 is shaped more like a champagne glass for a variety of good reasons.  It is a different boat with different characteristics.  The end result is the same.  It is less tippy than the 16 which it can be criticized for.
The 16 will feel tippy until it takes its set.  Once the force of the wind is balanced by the dis-inclination of the boat to tip farther it converts the energy to motion.  Add more sail or wind and it tips a little more and then goes faster.
Once you reach max hull speed of about 5.2 knots it wont go faster it will tip more and then the sails because of their design start spilling wind or power at that angle.
There isn't enough sail area to capsize the boat.
Now, that said, it is prudent in heavy weather to put in the hatch in case of a knockdown, just like it would be smart to get out the safety gear when weather turns bad.  The 16 is designed to take  a knockdown and bob back upright.
You are much safer in a Com-Pac 16 in coastal waters and heavy weather than you would be in a lightly ballasted dinghy that has to be uprighted by standing on the dagger board.  That can be fun on a summer day but not in a gale with 50 degree water.
Last bit of advice.  Take your boat out and test it.  See how far you can heel it over.  Can you get water over the rail?  If so, what would you do to try and get water in the cabin?
Try sailing with just jib, just main, bare pole?  Try sailing in little wind and a heavy blow.  I consider all my sailing as practice for the day the unexpected happens.  These skills will keep you calm and having fun when others might freak out.

[mgoller]

Hey, there is foam under the rails!  I was looking at the picture of my 16's interior on page 6 of the gallery.  I still think it may be more for support than floatation.  That picture also shows the foam under the cockpit floor.
If you going to put it back, that would be a good time to reserve space for a battery and a porta potti.  Mine had room for only one or the other.

Oh, the + or - thingy.  That was a new feature added with the recent software for the forum.  Use it or not, I think everyone here at the Com-Pac forum deserves a hundred +'s.  I can see why it would be used at Ebay to reward good traders.  Here, we're all a good bunch of sailors.

[Gil Weiss]

I added several cubic feet of foam by making up blocks from "green" 2 ich thick foam we use at work to line crates with. I shoved these blocks down into the bunks, have some smaller pieces in my chain locker and a few hunks in the rear bilge area. This plus a few bags of life jackets and flotation pillows will keep my CP16 a float in an emergency.

I agree that these boats are pretty hard to tip as they are basically self righting. As previously said by other CP sailors, the key is to put in the hatch boards in a blow. I do know someone who took a gust which put the rail into the water and he wound up with several inches of water in the cabin. He now uses the hatch boards! The boat did right itself.

For those of us thar keep our boats in a slip all season there is the risk of being "holed" or getting a leak, hence I added the foam flotation material. It is easilt removable using my boat hook.

[Liane]

Wow.  You guys are all amazing.  Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and squash my concerns. 

I was worried that something I would accidentally do as a (total) novice sailor would potentially sink my boat, but now it seems that I would really have to *try* to sink it, which of course I won't do. 

Thanks mgoller for looking for the foam under the rails, I will use your (brilliant) garbage bag idea and fill the empty rail.  I think I might skip the foam under the cockpit, and use that for storage (I'm hoping to do a lot of camping, etc). 

There were a lot of other comments I didn't really understand due to terminology, but I have printed them out and will consult them when I actually get this baby in the water...  So far it's just been in my driveway...

Good to know the sails are designed to disipate wind/power after a certain point, that is great -- I can push it and test the limits, knowing this safety feature is built in, without worrying about losing the boat.

Also good advice to have the cabin closed up if weather changes.  Mostly I plan to be in coastal bays and the Puget Sound, hopefully the San Juans... 

Now I'm dreaming instead of working, better get to it!

Thanks to everyone for their time, what a great community.  Anybody in the NW?

Just curious.  Most folks around here haven't even heard of CP.  I've been told it's most popular on the SE coast. 

Thanks again. 

Liane