Solent stay on CP27?

[Tney88]

Has anybody installed a solent stay on a CP-27, so you could fly a smaller jib or storm jib?

Terry Ney
CP 27 "Paradiso"
Veneta, OR

[capt_nemo]

Tney88,

Although I currently sail a Sun Cat with Rig I modified to fly masthead headsails, I do have quite a bit of experience with quick-release removable inner stays (not solent) for smaller headsails on larger sailboats.

If the inner/solent stay is properly installed so as not to interfere with the forestay (furler), with dependable quick-release capability and secure out-of-the-way stowage when not needed,  they are a quick, effective, and proven means to provide efficiency and flexibility in employing the right headsail to match prevailing wind conditions.

If the solent stay has a furled jib and is otherwise "ready to go", it avoids the time consuming chore of hanking on the smaller jib or changing sails in the fore stay furling extrusion groove. And, if a second set of quickly attached pre lead jib sheets is readily available you'll think you done died and gone to sailing heaven.

capt_nemo

For that quickly attached second set of jib sheets consider the following method.

[Tney88]

Hi, Cap't Nemo,

Thanks for the reply, and the excellent idea about quick attachment for a second set of jib sheets.  I like that idea, allows a quickly installed/removable setup without heavy stainless steel hardware that could flail around on the foredeck and potentially whack somebody's noggin.

So as far as attaching an inner stay (solent stay) do you suggest a tensioner such as a Highfield lever, or a block and line arrangement with mechanical advantage (3:1 or 4:1) to tension the line?  Also, so you like wire for the stay, or some of the non-stretch line such as Dynex Dux?  My last question is specific to the CP-27, so I may have to ask it of Gerry Hutchins.....but is it possible to add a stem fitting at the base of the bowsprit for an attachment point for this purpose?

Regards,

Terry Ney
CP-27 "Paradiso"
Veneta, OR

[capt_nemo]

Tney88,

I employed HIGHFIELD LEVER type tensioners and found them quick, easy to use, and quite effective when used with a WIRE STAY. The wire could be a more flexible type than that normally used for standing rigging, if necessary for ease of stowing when not needed. And, in my opinion, if you choose a hanked on jib the wire works better - slicker, less stretch, and less prone to chafe.

If I were mounting an extra stem head fitting on a 23 bowsprit, it would be THRU BOLTED and as close to the bow (underneath) as possible to derive strength from this position. I'm not familiar with the construction details of the bowsprit. I'm assuming that the sprit is solid and securely attached to the deck at the front of the bow. If not, a custom stainless fitting securely attached to the hull (thru bolted) under the bowsprit would be required to accept the stem head fitting bolts going THROUGH THE SPRIT and secure them with washers (if necessary) and nylon locknuts.

Hope this provides food for thought.

capt_nemo

[Tney88]

Cap't Nemo,

The Highfield Lever and wire stay sounds like the way to go.

I emailed Gerry Hutchins last night and got an email back from him this morning.  Here's what he had to say:

"Terry - There would be two places you could install a tang for that stay.  The strongest and easiest would be bolted directly to the bow of the boat and have the tang go up through a hole in the bowsprit wood.  The other would be at the location on deck where the chainlocker bulkhead meets the deck.  That way you can bolt to the chainlocker bulkhead.  See the attached photos of one we did on a 27 at the chainlocker.  I do not remember if we modified the bulkhead to be stronger but I suspect that we did."

You gotta like the customer service that the Hutchins folks give us!  As I recall the chainlocker bulkhead on my CP-27 is pretty light duty plywood, so I'm sure I would want to replace it with some 3/4" teak plywood.  All in all I think the first option would be the best for what I want to accomplish, bolting it right to the bow along the stem above the tang for the bobstay, and then up thru a hole in the bowsprit wood.  I'm sure I can scrounge around and find a SS stem fitting off of some other boat that would work.

Fair Winds!

Terry Ney
2004 CP-27 "Paradiso"
Veneta, OR

[capt_nemo]

Tney88,

Best wishes on your Rig mod. Take it slow and easy - thinking everything through.

And, let us know how it all turns out.

capt_nemo

[deisher6]

For what it is worth.  I have been checking out different ways of attaching one set of jib sheets to different jibs.  On our C-27 I have two jibs a 110 and a 150-155.  I do not use roller furling and am trying to use just one set of jib sheets.  In doing so my main concern is a fitting that is light enough not to hurt if it snaps you when flogging and something that will not get hung up on stays or mast. At this point I have tried:

-two sheets tied on with bowlines.  There is a lot of mass there and it smarted when it snapped me in the back and upside my head.

-a set up like shown in this post with the loop and pin.  The rope version pulled through, got caught on rigging and flogged loose, a solid pin was not an improvement except it didn't pull through.

-this set up with sewn in whipping covered with a larger chord whipping.  It was starting to self destruct after about 3 weeks of sailing.



-hopefully the final solution. A middle of the sheet splice.  Note that the 'u' part of the shackle would be in the clew of the jib this way the shackle will not snag on the side stays when tacking.  This method is as of yet untested.



regards charlie

[capt_nemo]

deisher6,

Respectfully disagree.

I've used the all-textile jib sheet rope loop and smaller doubled rope loop insert as shown in the post above for many years on both large and small sailboats over many cruising miles and have NEVER had it come loose. The trick is not to make the loop any larger than is absolutely necessary to pass through the clew cringle and have just enough protruding to insert the smaller doubled rope insert stopper.

And yes, depending on your tacking technique it could occasionally snag on standing rigging or other fittings. It's best to start the tack and let the jib backwind slightly before releasing the loaded sheet. Releasing too early allows the jib and especially the clew with attached sheet to flog around on its way through the fore triangle looking for something to snag on.

If you have protrusions on the mast, bow cleats, or rope chocks that sometimes get in the way, try a light line attached to the mast ABOVE the potential offenders then led forward/downward and attached to the stem head. With jib sheet led ABOVE the line, snags on mast or deck hardware are greatly reduced.

I gladly accepted the chance of an occasional snag to have a method of jib sheet quick-release/attachment with ABSOLUTELY NO METAL to potentially cause serious bodily damage to foredeck crew.

capt_nemo

[deisher6]

Hey Capt Nemo:
The rope only system that I tried consisted of: a short piece of twisted line with an eye spice in it and a crown knot at the end.  A bight of the jib sheet was threaded though the eye spice, then through the clew.  The tail of the eye spliced line was then threaded through the bight of the jib sheet.  A larger line and doubling up on the tail of the eye spiced line (as shown in the picture) might have stopped it from pulling though but not from getting hung up.

I will admit that I might not be the fastest tacker when single handling.  After the helm is alee I generally backwind the jib before letting the windward sheet fly.  Then setting the new course and the auto pilot before trimming the jib.  Sometimes I pre wrap the winch and one hand it without setting the course, this works especially if I can get it tight enough to put a turn around the self tailer before the boat is all the way through the wind.

I sailed 12 nm last Sunday with a reefed main and the 110 jib on a course that was 0 to 15 degrees off the wind.  Our average speed was around 4.5 to 6 mph (just guessing-there was plenty of wind) for 6.5 hours.  The river is 3-4 nm wide at the most to less than 1nm at the narrowest.  I tacked a bunch, probably hung up a sheet 1 of 6 tacks.  I was thinking that when you tack that there is only one thing that can go right and several more that can go wrong.

At least four sailboats motored by me.. they probably had to be someplace in a hurry.

The shackle on the latest trial is pretty light, I think that I can take a shot from it if unavoidable.  We all gotta try what works best for us.  The line around the mast and stays bears thinking about for the 150.

Thanks for your posts, discussion and ideas.

regards charlie

[capt_nemo]

deisher6,

OK. Sail well and safely.

Wishing you many uneventful tacks!

capt_nemo

[Craig]

The best way not to have a jib snag when tacking is to sail a catboat! LOL. Seriously though, in my sloop days on the Chesapeake I used the same jibsheet system as Capt Nemo. All my boats originally had a metal jibsheet shackle which I promptly changed to the all-textile system. Never had it come loose even with some serious flogging. A flogging metal shackle is not only a hazard to crew but can take a chunk out of fiberglass as well.

[relamb]

Do you really need a stem fitting for this?  I thought I'd seen people on other boats using a padeye reinforced with a backing plate.
The forestay is still going to be there doing it's job holding up the mast as well as taking forces from the  the sail plan.
I'm half tempted to take some wire, loop it over the front horn of the anchor cleat, and hoist it with the jib halyard as a solent stay.  Then raise a jib on it with the spinnaker halyard and see what happens.  ...assuming I verify the anchor cleat has good backing.

[Tney88]

Well, I'm leaning towards the advice from Gerry Hutchins on how to anchor the inner stay.  I'm also thinking that this stay is going to fly a storm jib, so the forces on it will possibly be more severe than the genoa gets, albeit on a much smaller sail area.  Not having the engineering skills to calculate the effects of a stronger wind on a smaller sail versus a lighter wind on a larger sail, and in turn the force that puts on the rigging, I tend to just over-engineer the whole thing.

[captrank]

Hi,

I installed a solent stay on my CP19. I did it by using the forestay connector at the bow of my boat. Skip installed a bowsprit that I bought from Hutchins several years ago. This came with a 2nd connection for my furler that was forward of the original. I went to Great Lakes Yacht services here in Sturgeon Bay and had them install a wire stay three quarters of the way up the mast. This has a quick release that I attach to the original tang when I want to hank on a small jib. The solent stay allows me to shorten the jib without raising the center of effort by half furling the genoa. This system works well in heavy weather with a reefed main.