Motor Size Doubts, Ballasting and trimming

[pbrenton]

Thanks to Curtis I have a new-to-me 2001 8hp 4-stroke outboard being mounted hopefully as I type.

When the motor arrived some of the old salts who sail in the same water had some comments on the size of my motor.  Of course, this is Maine, and teasing the newbie is a long tradition (and extends to "newbies" who have been on the bay for 10+ years).

Still and all, 90 pounds of motor right aft must have some effect on trim.  I can recall having five people int he cockpit last summer and seeing water coming in throught the cockpit drain (before I sent a couple up to the bow to sunbathe).

Maybe I should be looking for a 3.5 or 4hp for next summer?  I'm on a bay (Casco Bay) that can get rough pretty quickly, and I do want to be able to get home at hull speed under some circumstances (thunderstorms, primarily.  Lightning strikes are what I see as the most dangerous sithuation that can develop the fastest, weather wise).  More often, though, I'm getting my boat out of a calm and into the wind.

Yes, I know there are other discussions of motor size, but I had read those and assured myself that my needs are different.  Now I'm faced with the thing (the Big Thing) and wonder if I was having "outboard envy".  

Next question, I planned on storing 10-20 gallons of fresh water in the space under the vee berth at the very front of the boat.  I figure that at 8 pounds a gallon ("a pint is a pound the world around") the effect on the trim would counteract the weight of the motor at the other end.  Besides, the original water storage tank was 13 gallons up there (I don't have mine - did not get it from the last owner) so the design is intended to accomadate 104 pounds to begin with.

Sometimes, though, I find the liquids stored on board are not filled as high as when I put them there.  Should I leave some space in the containers?  Does the temp in summer in these places become very high like the interior of a car does on a hot day?  Is my trim theory sound?  Do I put the four people in the cockpit, water in the bow and row around the boat with the motor up and look at the waterline, like Captain Aubrey?  

Inquiring minds want to know.  I want to know!

Pete

P.S. Ella J, after proper renaming, goes in next weekend if all goes to plan.

[Mercrewser]

Sounds more like "bold" salts than old salts.  8hp is just fine.  I wouldnt want any less on open water.  I wouldnt have an idea on the rest of your trim questions.  But as for power, your not pushing around some dingy.  In a 25kt wind with some good chop, a 4 hp outboard would be a joke.

[Mercrewser]

One other thing, a good "rule of thumb" idea to remember around the marina.  I'm sure alot of the other members on this board could atest to this.  Every marina, and every small General Aviation airport for that matter, have a group of old salts that hang around.  After you become experienced you learn that these are some of the dumbest guys ever!

[curtis]

Hey Mercrewser,

Those sound like harsh words from a CP16 sailor who's fearful of 25 knots of wind.  You must be one of those hanging around in the marina when the wind picks up.  

Anyway with 25 knot winds I'd tie the second reef in the main and keep the full 110% jib out.  Used to be I'd tie the first reef in the main and furl the jib a little but now I'm more partial to this combination.  Not something I would do if it ever happenned but something I have done plenty of times.  Sails quite comfortably that way.

The 8HP is a fine choice for a CP23 if you plan to do any motoring.  Honda makes the cover bigger than it needs to be giving it a massive look to it.  Some people thought I had 40 HP on the transom based on the size of the thing.   I also think 5 HP would be perfectly adequate since I never got the 8HP over half throttle.  Peter got the 8HP at the price of a 5HP so it doesn't  matter much if 5HP is enough.

I don't find that I do much motoring at all and 100% of it is when the wind dies or the yearly launch and retrieve.  So I sold that 8HP Honda to Peter.  Its replacement is a trolling motor.  I wanted to clear transom space so I could eventually add wind self steering in its place.

As to Peter's question, I don't think that trim is affected that much.  A little yes.  Water tanks only add weight if full.  Instead put a good size primary anchor on the bow and 40 feet of chain and you've probably got the boat balanced again.  Worked for me (2 anchors, 15 and 27 pound, one 6' 3/8" chain and 150' 3/8" nylon, the other 40' 3/8" chain and 300' 1/2" nylon, total a bit over 100 lbs).  I removed 100 lbs from the stern now so I may store my second anchor and rode in a stern locker.

Curtis

[pbrenton]

I've shifted a little more forward and found the trim to be at least "good enough".  I think I need not have worried; Ella J may not win many races, but th sailing has been excellent on Casco Bay this summer so far and she's been lively every time.

Use the 8hp to motor back against tide and wind in a fair chop last weekend.  I was, as Curtis implied, happy to have the extra power under the transom for that trip, not because I could not have returned to port under sail, but because I would have been sailing in the dark.  I would not have minded much, but it made my passengers nervous.  Instead they got a little wet and made it to the mooring in time for an amazing sunset.

Curtis, what are you using to power that trolling motor?  12 or 24v?

Pete

[curtis]

Curtis, what are you using to power that trolling motor?  12 or 24v?

Pete

12V.  It is a 55 lb thrust motor which translates to roughly 55 A at full throttle according to Minn Kota.  I have an 8D battery which should be able to take that but I don't expect to be using full throttle.  Its really just to be able to move to a place to anchor if the wind were to completely die.

I do need a bigger solar panel though.  It just making a place to mount it.  That is much later on the project list.

Curtis

[mrains]

I have a 5hp and regularly reach hull speed.  I've even reached near hull speed when beating to wind, wave, and tide.  I keep thinking about upgrading to an 8hp, but I haven't done so to date because I suspect I'd still be regularly reaching hull speed but doing so on less throttle and more fuel.  Still, I sail in the Gulf and associated bay waters and never see the kinds of currents you do in Maine.  If I were you, I might be tempted to go ahead and keep the 8hp.  I'd waste weight and fuel 9 days in 10, but I'd be happy when beating up one of those wicked currents on that 10th day.

[curtis]

I have a 5hp and regularly reach hull speed.  I've even reached near hull speed when beating to wind, wave, and tide.  I keep thinking about upgrading to an 8hp, but I haven't done so to date because I suspect I'd still be regularly reaching hull speed but doing so on less throttle and more fuel.  Still, I sail in the Gulf and associated bay waters and never see the kinds of currents you do in Maine.  If I were you, I might be tempted to go ahead and keep the 8hp.  I'd waste weight and fuel 9 days in 10, but I'd be happy when beating up one of those wicked currents on that 10th day.

Peter sails in Maine.  I sail off Cape Cod.  Currents here are up to 4 knots in places I sail regularly.  Maine does have some very strong currents in places, much more than 4 knots, maybe twice that in places.  Near me Woods Hole is known to have currents up to 6 to 8 knots at time but I don't have reason to go through there.  Hull speed or not, you might be in trouble if you don't check the tide chart before entering.

Sailing against the current is just silly.  Read the tide charts.  I plan my day according to the tides and which way the current is running and eliminate the need to motor even if the wind is light.  About every other week low tide is near the middle of the day which means Pleasant Bay where I sail out of empties in the morning and fills back up in the afternoon.  If low tide is in the morning and the wind is strong its a good day to head for Nantucket because an hour later current heads south along Cape Cod, then two hours later current starts to head into Poluck Rip, then for three hours current in Nantucket Sound is heading west.  The trick is to get over the 1 ft MLW shoal on the way out of Pleasant Bay (heeled as far as possible) and down the coast in good time.  This is a good couple of days trip since the tides will be favorable to go the other way on an early morning start in a few days.  Or make a weekend out of it by leaving Nantucket Harbor before sunrise.  If I'm not up for an overnight or longer and the tides aren't right for a daysail up the channel, I simply daysail in Pleasant Bay.  For a few years I had this big heavy motor on the stern "just in case" but it got used so seldom I sold it to Peter.

Where I sail if you want to adopt the weekend warrior stinkpotter philosophy of "we're going out when we feel like it and the hell with the tide cycle" then you'll need a lot more HP on the stern than if you can and are willing to read the tide chart and plan accordingly.  Some people have 15 miles to go in a current to reach decent sailing and for them on many days there is little choice but to motor to get there or don't sail at all.  A shame, but can't be helped.

Curtis