Legacy positive buoyancy?

[kahpho]

Thanks for the information Pete. Makes me feel that much better about my Legacy. Not that I was that much worried  still good to know.

[Pete H]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your thoughts on this topic. I really value your input. I value all points of view, and I like to test them against mine. This allows me to modify my views if necessary. Views formed alone and never reviewed or tested against others beliefs can lead one up some very strange paths. Rest assured someone expressing a view contrary to mine will not upset me, the point of view will be considered then adopted or let lie, but it will be thought about.

I have of course sailed on boats without positive buoyancy, my last boat, a Hartley TS18, which we owned for nearly fourty years, probably would have sunk if holed. About 30 years ago I hit an unidentified object and punched whole in the hull a couple of inches below the waterline, only about a two inch hole, but the inflow of water was staggering. Luckily were only a few hundred yards off shore so I ran her up on the beach, but if I had been a few miles off shore, well I would have found out if it floated or not. I had my wife and ten year old son on board. After this I fitted a heap of foam as insurance. I feel that there is a lot more junk floating about off our shores now, so the odds of hitting something have increased.

I became interested in positive buoyancy in my Legacy as there seemed to be a lot of it, (so much that there is bit of a shortage of storage space) and because of the above I was interested.

Some of you have mentioned PDFs, and of course we always have them on board, currently using gas canister inflatable types.

We also carry flares, smoke signals, an EPIRB and radio.

I generally sail in what would be classed as enclosed waters, large bays, estuaries, coastal areas shielded by offlying islands or sand bars or large lakes. My favourite sailing area is a series interconnected lakes separated from the sea by a large sand ridge. These are the largest network of lakes in Australia, (large is a relative concept though as they are less than one percent the size of Lake Superior). When the wind blows along the main lake there is a fetch of about fifty miles and we get a nasty short and choppy wave pattern, but nothing like eight or ten feet thankfully, although that would be common in Bass Strait, so I don't usually get more than a few miles off sure there.

It is not my intention to try and sanitize sailing, I realize there are certain inherent risks and challenges in our activity and I also realize that no matter how much care we take we can still be caught out and then it is up to us. My other main interest is motor cycling and my approach there is similar, I wear a helmet, leathers, gloves and boots, but that doesn't guarantee a motorcyclists safety, even skill and never failing vigilance make riding a large bike completely safe.

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments
Best wishes for fair winds

Pete H

[skip1930]

What? Me worry?
This was my dad's Star Boat in a Lake Michigan blow about 1963. I was just learning on my Penquin. Me and Dad were laughing so hard I had a belly ache.

This picture was taken by Warren Pattenson from his Rhodes 19 keel boat. The same boat that I was later the 'Spinnaker Man' on when we raced her.
Warren was my Dad's best grade school and Navy war pal.

Dad's open cockpit Star Boat is in no danger of taking on water or flooding.
Rest assured that that this sharpie's iron keel would have sucked her down in a heart beat if the hull flooded.
Moments later she righted herself.
The Star is just a good, strong, safe, racing boat that goes like stink. The Star has zero floatation and here is why.

-->" Flotation -  Applicability; Since the regulation is divided according to boat type, the applicability for the various types is discussed in each subpart. The exceptions, however, apply to all subparts and are as follows:

Sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious vessels, multi-hull boats and race-boats need not comply. "<--

A pic of the Penquin that dad made me sail out from Belmont Harbor to the Chicago water intake crib that is three miles out there and back. Better believe I never took my PFD off.

skip.

[brackish]

Put enough foam in the boat so it won't sink...will the deck 'let go' from the hull anyway?

Just asking. skip.

seems to me it would be mostly submerged and fairly nuetral in the water.  Even if turned turtle, I doubt the weight of the deck would be enough to separate it with a 5200 seal, machine screws and nuts, and chainplate help.

When I was installing an undermount SS sink, I asked a pro for some advice about the placement of the clamps to hold it in place.  He gave me a spacing spec, but said don't worry about it, the silicone seal will hold it without any clamps even when filled with water and dishes.  Clamps just make them feel better about it.

[Pete H]

Hi all,

Skip1930, great photo!  The regulations in Victoria ( the Australian state where I live) are similar with a whole range of inclusions and exclusions that can be confusing, even for the boat builders who have to make their way through the minefield, and boats over twenty feet or yachts are just two among the exclusions. However in my state the Legacy is not regarded as a yacht. They insist on registering it as a "Trailer Sailer", and therefore it must contain positive buoyancy. Don't you just love bureaucrats! I guess it is a recognition that a heavily built, heavily ballasted boat built for blue water use is different to a trailer boat. I have some sympathy with that view as I have always felt that if it was light enough to trailer easily, it was probably to lightly constructed for offshore sailing. My previous boat was both too small and  lightly constructed and too big and heavy depending where and when, too small if I was caught out in 40 knot winds and too bloody big when trying to winch it back onto the trailer at a steep boat ramp.

Regards,

Pete H

[Pete H]

Thanks for your thoughts Brackish, I think your probably correct with both assumptions.

Pet H

[Tim Gardner]

Skip said, "Next they will require sailors to wear protective head gear.".

When I was in college sailing "Shields" we wore "helmets" .  Those of us that were engineers did anyway. we wore our engineer's bump caps.  Any marine engineer will tell you they are invaluable to prevent contact with hard places on board a ship. 

Well, even the deckies started wearing them after an accidental gybe or two.

TG

[ribbed_rotting_rusting]

In the late 80,s I had a young man who worked for me from Michigan who was an aux. deputy sheriff from around Saginaw Bay.One day he told how the Sheriff's department conceived of the idea of putting protective foam to match the " unsinkable qualities " of a fellow agency just down the road who had purchased a new boat. They had a local guy from I guess the materials dept of the local college give them spec's based on wt of the boat and rescue equipment and the men who would be aboard. The professor was challenged because he had never been asked to calculate this before, So then the got a local boat place to do the work. The young man went on to tell me that every thing was great, but when they launched the boat afterwords it noticeably sat lower in the water. After firing it up they safely proceeded to go further out in the bay before coming up on plane. The only problem was when tried to plane the boat would porpoise an  extreme fashion, something it never did before the "improvement. It seems no considered the weight of the foam necessary to make the boat unsinkable, and the negative effects of that wt.He also went on to say that at that point they were resigned to putting some hydraulic leveling tabs in the next years budget because that years budget was blown. Best intentions, eh?

[brianb]

Asking "should cars be made uncrashable" is asking the wrong question.  Adding foam to make a boat unsinkable is akin to adding an air bag to a car or designing the frame to reduce g-forces for the occupants in a crash.  It's a safety feature with little or no impact on performance that can make a bad accident survivable that might not be otherwise.  If you don't want the floatation don't buy that boat or remove it.  Don't belittle the thinking of those who see value in it.  Plenty of experienced sailors see value in positive foam floatation.

I found Gerry's answer to be very honest and forthright.  It makes me wonder on what basis other manufacturers stamp their boats as unsinkable?  Do they have any certification?  I'm also impressed that they left the foam in place even once they realized they could not stamp the boats as unsinkable.  Some manufacturers might have skipped the foam to save some building cost.

I for one am glad that my Legacy has the foam and I intend to do everything in my power to make sure the foam is a "waste of space". :-)

[ribbed_rotting_rusting]

I think it great that it was designed right and met your concerns. But new technology can have unintended consequences, The air bag turn off switch on passengers side of my F150 was due to the maiming and injury of kids or small adults (like my 85 year old mother), If I am not mistaken there was also a tuning up (or down actually) of air bags due too much force breaking noses or ribs. Or going off at minor contact with bumper. I don't know the short hand name but there is a "law of unintended consequences"? Even when engineered by professionals there are problems. I think project management is a way to deal with unexpected complications. Boat design is both an art and a science, and I think any safety engineering is too.
No one is knocking the foam in a boat, but the problems that are legitimate concerns and shouldn't be ignored. Forums like this are a place to address these concerns especially when it applies to marine applications of safety technology. Also to inform such as when owners of boats might think they have "unsinkable" foam in their boat when it has a completely different purpose Centuries of knowledge  (you old fuddy  duddies you) are behind a lot of these posters.

[brianb]

Nothing new about foam floatation.  Some boats have had it for decades.  Flying Scots for example have had it since the 1950's.