Considering CP-23 and need advice

[dparrish]

I've narrowed my choices for my next (and hopefully LAST for a long while) boat to three: Com-pac 23, Precision 23, and Rhodes 22. As boat-buying is NEVER an easy process (What would happen to the car manufactuers if they required you to purchase a new vehicle without a test drive?), I'm doing as much research as possible before making the purchase.

I've had several boats in the past, all in the 19' range. Now that I have a family of 4 (two nine year old daughters), I need something bigger, but still trailerable. I also have a dream of being able to do some coastal sailing, sail to the Keys, etc. Although I know that a larger boat would likely handle coastal sailing best, I have determined that for my budget and needs (I am a teacher and don't make that much money for haul-outs, bottom jobs, slip fees, etc.), the 22-23' size is the largest that I can trailer reasonably well and still get more room than what I've had.

My tastes run toward the traditional, and knowing that the boat will hopefully be used not only for local lake sailing (I live about 5 hours from the Texas Gulf coast) but for coastal sailing, the Com-pac 23 SEEMS to be the best choice. It has the heaviest displacement of the three choices, is most heavily ballasted, and would seem to have the most sea-kindly hull shape. I want to do more than just day sail--I want to be able to do some week-long cruising either alone or with one or two family members (the four of us would probably just day sail, as my wife isn't much into "roughing it" ).

Having said this, however, the strengths of the other 2 relative to the Com-pac would seem to be:

1. The Precision and the Rhodes have slightly less draft (23" and 20", as opposed to 27"), and both of these boats have a centerboard in addition to the shoal ballast, which should make them point better than the Com-pac (althought the Com-pac's keel is a bit longer and taller).

2. The Precision would appear to have the most intererior room of the three (I haven't stepped inside a Rhodes--I've only seen pictures), and the Rhodes has the most "big ship" interior features (full galley, enclosed head).

3. I've sailed the Precision and thought it to be a FAST boat, with a big boat feel and very well balance, mannered, etc. I didn't have a chance to test it under heavy air, though. It DOES easily respond to the slightest breeze, which is great for light air, but I'm not sure how well it would do in heavy air. I'm hoping to make plans soon to sail the Rhodes 22 and Com-pac 23. I've had a Com-pac 19 in the past and I've sailed a CP16 before, so I think I have a PRETTY good idea of what to expect, although I'm told that the CP23's hull form should be more sea-kindly than the CP19.

4. The quality of these 3 boats would seem to be similar--I have talked with one owner of a new Rhodes, who vouches for their quality, and I've seen the Precision and Com-pacs first hand. I AM a little concerned, however, about my learning that Hutchins has their glasswork and rigging farmed out, rather than in-house. I've heard of reports of spider cracks, etc. Also, rather than glass the bulkhead into the hull/deck, Hutchins evidently just screws it in. Any comments about the construction of the Com-pacs?

5. Although the new Eclipse and the CP catboats are probably more trailer-friendly, I've ruled them out. I don't feel that the Eclipse has enough ballast and I don't like the open transom, especially not for coastal sailing. The CP catboats just aren't really designed for a family of 4, and I prefer a sloop.

One more question: Can you leave your outboard on the CP23's stern mount for trailering? I REALLY don't like the idea of having to haul a  90 pound (or more) motor to the front of the trailer for towing each trip .


Do any of you have any advice/thoughts on my choice?

Thanks!

By the way, prices on these boats new are similar. The Precision would be a bit less, the Rhodes would likely be a bit more (if fully-optioned out--although they don't offer a diesel, but I couldn't afford this anyway).

[Mercrewser]

The Com-pac will not have a deck or hull cored with wood.  Do the others?  If they do, that would be the one reason I would go with the Compac.  You should avoid cored hulls like the plaque.

[curtis]

I'm a CP23 owner so maybe partial.  Here are some responses to a few of your questions.

3. I've sailed the Precision and thought it to be a FAST boat, with a big boat feel and very well balance, mannered, etc. I didn't have a chance to test it under heavy air, though.  [...]

The Precision will point better particularly in light air given the centerboard.  In general it will sail better in light air being a lighter boat.
In moderate air the two are closer to comparable.  Close enough that a good sailor in a CP23 could probably outsail an average sailor in a P23.  When conditions get strong you'll probably appreciate being in the CP23 as it is likely to be more seakindly and stable given the additional balance and the hull shape.  It is aleged to be much more seakindly than a CP19 due to the relatively flat bottom of the CP19.

4. The quality of these 3 boats would seem to be similar--I have talked with one owner of a new Rhodes, who vouches for their quality, and I've seen the Precision and Com-pacs first hand. I AM a little concerned, however, about my learning that Hutchins has their glasswork and rigging farmed out, rather than in-house. I've heard of reports of spider cracks, etc. Also, rather than glass the bulkhead into the hull/deck, Hutchins evidently just screws it in. Any comments about the construction of the Com-pacs?

I had two minor voids in the fiberglass between the gelcoat and first lamnate layer one at a curve in the cabin top, the other at a curve in the back of the keel.  Both were easily repaired but this sort of thing shouldn't happen.

None of the bulkheads are screwed in.  They are all glassed in but one of them is not fully glassed, it is tabbed in.  The only place were screws attach a bulkhead is where the cabintop meets the bulkhead in the cabin.  Here too I had a problem but I was pounding to windward in 25 knots and 5 foot waves.  The boat was literally coming out of the water off waves and slamming back down.  There are four hard plastic peices that keep the bulkhead from shifting relative to the cabin top.  These are screwed to the cabin top.  One of the peices cracked and let the hull/deck shift a bit more than it should.  There was no subsequent damage.  I replaced these with some oak and very heavy wood screws that insure this won't happen again.

There are three bulkheads.  One is just aft of the chain locker.  It is very well glassed in.  The second is inside the cabin and its primary purpose seems to be to support the mast.  It is tabbed in to the hull and its alignment to the cabin top is the plastic peices and screws I described.  The third bulkhead is just aft of the keel and just aft of the companionway.  This one is glassed to the hull all the way around.  I think that the two bulkheads that are fully glassed in are there to maintain hull rigidity and the third is mostly there to support the deck stepped mast.  It is entirely possible that this bulkhead is not supposed to constain hull flex and that why it is tabbed in.  Sometimes constaining hull flex can cause stress points and promote hull damage rather than prevent it.

The CP23 is very solidly built.  If you wanted to cross oceans there is a lot to change in any of these boats.

One more question: Can you leave your outboard on the CP23's stern mount for trailering?

The transom has what looks to be 1/2" core glassed into it.  On the cabin top a rigid structural foam is used (quite strong, not subject to water damage).  I don't know what the material is in the transom core but the transom is very rigid and no problem trailering with the motor mounted.  For a long trip I'd take the motor off if it weighs 90 lbs on any boat though.

Do any of you have any advice/thoughts on my choice?

I'm partial to the CP23.  A lot depends on what you are looking for in a boat.  I would rather have a more capable cruiser and so the CP23 is my choice.  If I was looking to zip around on protected water I'd pick the P23 but I'd feel a lot less safe on open water.

There is a lot of info that you might find helpful on my boat's home page http://norumbega.faster-light.net/remote-access/ under "Boat and Equipment Experiences".  If given the chance I'd buy the CP23 without the sails and get top quality sails from Northsails rather than the AirForce sails that come with the boat.

Curtis

[dparrish]

Thank you both for your replies. I believe the Precision uses foam coring, but I'm not sure about the Rhodes. I think it does also, but I'll have to find out.

Curtis, I appreciate your comments. I like the idea of being able to stay out in moderate to heavier air, when others have to head back in
While I know that local lake sailing will have wide variance in wind conditions--anything from almost nothing to 20/25 knot gusts, I feel that the coast has more consistent winds. I believe the AVERAGE windspeed along the Texas Gulf coast is in the teens, and the further south you go, the windier (Corpus Christi seems to have frequent winds into the 20s).

Do you feel confident in taking your CP23 out offshore in reasonable conditions? No, I don't have any illusions of doing ocean crossings in a boat this size, but I WOULD like to feel some confidence in being able to take the boat out offshore from time to time, perhaps sail the Keys, etc.

The comments regarding the bulkheads eases my mind quite a bit. Sometimes you read reviews of boats that are really not explained thoroughly (I read the part about screwed in bulkheads in a magazine review, I forget which one). I agree though that the fiberglass on a new boat should not even have a MINOR problem. But overall, assuming Hutchins' quality is the same as it has been in the past, I am sure that the boat would be at LEAST as good in quality as the other two boats, and probably better overall than the Precision (not sure about the Rhodes).

Curtis, I have ALREADY spent much time at your website--well done!! I really appreciate all of the time you've put into this. I have enjoyed reading alot of it to this point and will make sure to spend a bit more time there .

The CP23 is NOT my "perfect boat", but I think it is probably the closest I can get to my particular needs (I do wish the v-birth were a LITTLE longer, and I can wish for a different head placement). I still plan to look at the Rhodes, which has quite a lot of gadgets and neat features (pop top, inner-mast furling, enclosed head, full galley), but I don't think its sailing characteristics (at least on paper) can match those of the CP23. Besides, I REALLY like the way the CP23 looks, and that's part of the romance with a boat, right

I'll keep you guys informed of my decision. I think I'm probably looking at ordering a new CP23 as soon as I have seen the Rhodes and the bank account is ready

Thanks,

David

[Windhawk]

I am partial to my 23, but I'd never say anything I didn't believe was true (well. about boats anyway!).  I took a look at a new 2003 Percision 23 at the Chicago boat show (product doesn't fit the dealers clientel, it's still for sale, and not too deeply discounted), and the thing that struck me was the poor quality of the interior finish, joins on some of the molding was off by as much as a quarter inch.  Maybe just this boat, but it bothered me some.

If there's much difference in interior size, it can't be much, but if you did a side-by-side, you'd know beter than me.  

Beside the poor interior workmanship on the P23, there really is no comparison with the cabin on the CP23... teak all the way though the Com-Pac, that's not true of the Pecision I saw.  They both look good, but I perfer the Com-Pac.  And of course, you can't get an inboard with the Percision.  I opted for the diesel, and I could not be happier with it, but at $8,495, it does put the cost of the boat up another level.  One VERY big plus of the diesel inboard is that it balances the boat better than hanging a motor off the transom.  The CP-23 diesel is a bit faster for this reason, and both Rich & Gerry Hutchins will be the first one's to say so (don't raise any hackels here folks, call Florida   :wink: ).

The Rhodes is another thing entirely.  They've built the same boat for 20 years, and have done some rather neat "tweaking" along the way.  Not that Com-Pac hasn't, but this boat is really "tricked out".  I didn't like the hull flare; I'm sure it's dry, but until you see one up-close, you're not really prepared for it.  At about 35K without the added cost of an inboard, it is the most expensive.  You can go for a free ride if you make it down to the factory, they are said to sail great.

I doubt you'd go wrong with any of them.

[dparrish]

Windhawk,

Thanks for the observations and advice. No doubt about it, the interior of the CP23 is the best of the three, especially for those of us who are traditionalists . Although the Precision has the roomiest cabin of the three, the workmanship and attention to detail are just OK. The seatback cushions on the interior are a good idea, but they have a cheap feel (the support braces squeek).

I just sailed the Rhodes this weekend. It did well in the Galvestion Bay area (Texas Gulf) in 5-15 knot winds (winds building throughout the day). I agree, though--I really DON'T like the looks of the flared hull, although it seems to work as advertised.

I wish I could afford the diesel on the Com-pac, that would solve my outboard dilema. I'm just not sure I can afford it, though, with electronics and other accessories needed to make the boat really usable and comfortable for week-long trips (when I have the time).

[sawyer]

I was just reading thru the on-line brochure for the 23-3 and I think that it said that the decking was cored for strength. Can anyone elaborate on that?  Or maybe it is not cored with wood but some type of non-rotting poly material or something.  I'm not ready for one, but always looking.

Thanks...........................Doug

[curtis]

Do you feel confident in taking your CP23 out offshore in reasonable conditions? No, I don't have any illusions of doing ocean crossings in a boat this size, but I WOULD like to feel some confidence in being able to take the boat out offshore from time to time, perhaps sail the Keys, etc.

Sorry for the delayed response.  Don't check this forum often.

I wouldn't hesitate to take my CP23 to the Keys as long as I checked the weather and it looks like no tropical storms where in the area.  With a 110 jib on a roller furler and 2 reefs in the main I've sailed a bit in 25 knots, once with reported gusts to 35 knots.  Its the waves that give you a rough time in the open water.  The CP23 is stable but best to head for shelter if there is going to be sustained winds of those speeds and a very large fetch such as an ocean or the Gulf.

Curtis

[curtis]

I was just reading thru the on-line brochure for the 23-3 and I think that it said that the decking was cored for strength. Can anyone elaborate on that?  Or maybe it is not cored with wood but some type of non-rotting poly material or something.  I'm not ready for one, but always looking.

Thanks...........................Doug

There is some sort of structural foam in my CP23.  I drilled through it with a hole saw when I added the VHF and mast wiring a few years ago.  I thought I had some photos of the core sample but I can't find them.  Only the deck is cored, not the hull.  This stuff doesn't look like it would soak up water.  I can't be sure that this was used on the older boats.

Curtis

[CaptK]

My understanding of the glass work with the CP's is this:

The hulls and decks are laid up by the folks at Island Packet, and then they get shipped to the CP factory for fit and finish. IP Yachts have a good reputation, and I didn't see anything on my ex CP23 that would lead me to believe that any shortcuts were taken as far as the glassing schedule.

The decks are mechanically bonded, which would be better done with glass, but that would add a lot of cost. My ex 23 ('79, hull #26) was pop-riveted on 12-16" centers, IIRC, and sailing her almost exclusively in the ocean, I never felt that the boat was lacking seriously for coastwise cruising. I understand that the decks nowadays are bonded with SS nuts and bolts, so that should be an even stronger join than what my CP had.

The "coring" in the deck isn't, really. The deck mold has areas which are recessed, and into those areas gets put a microballoon slurry. This acts a lot like a foam core, but isn't a core like other manufacturers use. It is not able to absorb water like balsa or foams.

[miata]

I have found and bought a 25' so I am going to sell my 23' com-pac and it's a wonderful boat but I need more room. I am open to ideas and have list it in the classified section. Help me find a good home for my CP 23'
Miata