Help - Bolt in grudeon ??

[rdcvsmith]

Hi everyone,

With springtime around the corner - thoughts turn to some of the projects I want to do for my seond season on the Coconut T.

New sails are going to be put off for another year, but I'm planning a new IDA RUDDER for this year. I thought at first about just getting the new Foiled Replacment Blade but now I'm leaning toward getting whole Unifoil Kick Up Rudder Assembly.

Please see pics below:

When I got the boat the bolt shown in the pics was there, I didn't pay much attention to it last year, just put the rest of the rudder assembly on, bolt on the top, washers and nuts to both and I went sailing.

If I'm looking to get that new complete IDA assembly that bolt is going to have to go, right? !
It really shouldn't be there, ? right?

I HAVE DONE:
1) tapped on it to some degree
2) tried to turn it (bolt head is a mess)

I have NOT done yet:
1) pulled put a BFH and really wack hard on it yet
2) put a large vise-grip on the head or shaft and try to twist it more.

I wanted to get some opinions from you on what previous owner may have done and more importantly: HOW SHOULD I PROCEED?

as always, thanks
-Ray

[Bob23]

Ray:
   I don't know if the bolt needs to be removed, but if it does:
   Keep your BFH in your BF tool box. Get some PB Blaster, spray it on repeatedly over a week, Maybe use some heat (not a torch) on the gudgeon itself. PB is amazing...keep the WD40 with the BFH.
   Very worse case, the gudgeon is not all that expensive. I think about 70 clams. I had to replace mine a few years ago due to salt water corrosion. Now I have zincs.
bob23

[Shawn]

Ray,

I had the same problem with mine when I went to replace it.  I ended up buying a new gudgeon and having it sent to Ida Sailer. They installed delrin bushings and sized the new kick up assembly to the gudgeon. The delrin will avoid the electrolysis which is what caused the problem with your current gudgeon.

Shawn

[skip1930]

The bolt is just that. A bolt corroded into a [plastic] delrin sheathed bore in an aluminium casting.

If you don't want to grab the bolt with a small pipe wrench and a five foot long cheater bar then tighten up a GOOD pair of VICE GRIPS and snap clamp it on that bolt. Clamp it on so tight you squeeze the water out of the steel. Put a schedule 80 steel pipe with a large enough dia. that will go over the vice grip or at least one arm [the business arm] of the vice grip. Put all your sweat on about a 5 foot pipe. Bounce a little bit. Might take a couple of days doing this.

It took me 3 weeks to crack loose 20 wheel lug nuts on my 1957 CJ3-A Jeep in 1977, a lot of heat and beat, a Tee wrench on the nut and supported horizontally on a block of wood, and a hydraulic jack jacking on the tee, lifting the chained-to-the-frame wheel off the ground. Then I'd go to work for the day and re jack that night. Didn't break nothing.

This will either crack the bolt loose, snap the bolt into two pieces, or break the casting. Remember castings don't bend so be sure not to put any side ways strain on the bolt that may be transferred to the cast lug on the rudder's frame. It's a good idea to try this after a few days of KROLL Penetrating Oil, the only PTO that I use on my 80+ years old Ford Model 'A' roadster. A little heat is a good idea as well, but don't torch the transom. Use a paint stripping heat gun. And speaking of transoms the fact that this casting is bolted to it with 4~1/4 inch bolts set in 3M-5200 makes for a very good vice and 'work table' to hold the piece, and apply force, as the bolt is twisted out with the vicegrip.

You can take the whole casting off the transom but then you'll really need a good work table and anchor to hold the casting when working on the bolt. My work table is lag bolted to a cement floor just for this purpose. "It don't move!" And I have a railroad vice that has held, cantilever style, a 700 lb diesel engine block.

If you break the bolt off, but not break the casting, remove the casting from the transom, grind the bolt smooth, center punch the center of the bolt and using a small drill, drill clean through the bolt using progressively larger and larger drills until you can either grab the remains of the bolt with an EZ Out or when the bolt is very thin, peen the bolt over on itself with a small flat punch. Don't break the drill off.

If you don't wish to do any of this, take a 4 inch grinder, cut the bolt in half, flush with the casting, and smack it out with drift pin and a 5 lb mull.

There is every change in the world that the casting hole that holds the bolt NEVER was fitted with a [plastic] delrin sleeve . Regardless after the bolt is out, drill the hole to 1/2 inch dia, clean through, both holes top and bottom and push in four 1/2 inch bronze oillight shoulder bushings from ACE Hardware, back to back, that are 7/8 inch long. Hang the rudder using new bolts sized for the inside dia of the bronze bushings. I used ss bolts but you could use bronze bolts. Doesn't matter. Stack up some washers and use copious amounts of Permatex NEVERSEAZE when assembled.

In the pictures below, note that I don't allow my rudder to kick up. That's a sheer bolt from a snow blower in her.

As much as I dislike the N.Y. Giants 'cause they beat the Pack, I want N.Y. to win Sunday's Super Bowl.

skip.

[sailen69]

Ray,
Just a thought.....
I would try soaking that bolt with something over a few days and maybe use a C-clamp and a socket to press the blot out.  Place a nut on the threaded end of the bolt to give a bigger, more stable area for the C- clamp to push against.  Find a socket bigger than the head of the bolt and place it over the bolt head.  Than, slowly and gradually tighten the C-clamp putting pressure on the threaded end of the bolt pushing it down into the socket.  Maybe even remove the gudgeon from the boat and use a bench vice instead of a C-clamp.  Hopefully after the bolt moves some, it will break free.  Some gentle heat may help if you have used a torch before.  My 83' CP-16 had no bushings in it.  I think Hutchins drills out the holes and puts in a bronze bushing now.
Lots of good luck!
Rich    

[rdcvsmith]

Got some "PB Blaster" today.
The plan will be to stop by each afternoon this week and soak it good!
Then followed by vice grips, hammers and / or a C clamp.
I'll keep you posted....
-Ray

[Bob23]

PB really is amazing stuff. And I've used the bronze bushings Skip speaks of but not on my Compac but rather on my old Oarmaster 1 sliding seat rig. Got em at Lowes.
bob23

[Salty19]

Ray,  Technically the bolt may be OK.  The new IDA rudder has "ears" or mounting flanges which could conceivable slip over the bolts you're shown.  Since the flanges are about 1/4" thick, maybe slightly more, some shims would need to be used to provide spacing between the flange of the IDA and the nuts (to cover the smooth portion of your bolt where the nuts cannot provide bite).

With that said, the rudder AND bolt is supposed to pivot inside the mount, not be seized like yours is. 

The full IDA assembly comes with new bolts, however when I received mine, they were threaded all the way up the fastener shaft.
I didn't like that, the threads would eventually chafe and guage the delrin bushing inside the mount.   So I bought two automotive racing grade stainless bolts (racebolts.com) that are of a grade of metal far exceeding standard.  After some careful measuring, I bought the right length of bolts with a smooth portion length that would ride inside the bushing and allow enough length for plastic spacers to be used right under two nuts (one for adjustment, the other a nylock nut to keep movement from loosening the adustment nut.   This way no threads contact the bushing, the bolts do not come loose and the action is smooth.

I don't recall why I didn't us the stock bolts, but seem to recall the smooth portion of the nut was too long and I didn't want to use shims.

It's smooth as butter with no slop with this setup, I just use a little BelRay waterproof grease on the pivot and setup the adjusting lock nuts each spring when I mount the rudder (it's stored in my basement as my indoor storage is too small to leave it mounted).


If you need the actual link to the part #, let me know and I'll measure mine and find the link for you.  Warning:  they were not cheap (about $14 a piece!) but quality and fit is excellent. The mount will break before these bolts will.

[rdcvsmith]

UPDATE

Well, after a coupe weeks of soaking it with PB Blaster, and attempting to grab it, twist it, bang it, etc (I dd not have electricity so 'heat' was not an option) . . . I just could not purswaid that bolt to part from my gudgeon!!

I looked into buying a new gudgeon from Hutchins but before I did I contacted Rudder Craft. Joel was wonderful there to talk/corespond with, he suggested just to take the old one off the boat and let his shop do the rest (which I did . . . after getting one of my 'skinny friends' to crawl back in the stern of the Coconut T to help with nut/bolt removal)

At least I don't feel so 'inadequate' (with stuck bolts . ), ....Joel said even with heat they could not get that bolt out, they had to machine it out. While it was there they sandblasted and powder coated the old grudeon, installed Delrin bushings, and custom fitted the whole rig to one of their new kick up foil rudder assemblies.

....gotta get my 'skinny friend' to crawl back in the boat and help me bolt on the 'new' one now!

-Ray

[Salty19]

Ray,  that sounds pretty sweet!  Can't wait to hear what you think of it

[skip1930]

When I took my transom assembly off the back of the boat, ONE time I crawled back there and used 4 tiny ViceGrips on four nuts.
Came out and spun them off from the outside of the hull. One by one I heard these drop into the bilge.
Getting them back on the bolts was a different story. The wife worked the outside business and I super glued a nut to me finger till she got them started. Than I clamped on the ViceGrips and she spun them on.

skip.