Introduction and Question

[butterchurn]

Hello!

I have just discovered Com-Pac sailboats and I am quite taken with the photos I have seen. 

I am a college VP and coming up on retirement in a couple of years.  My wife and I would like to do extensive cruising in the Great Lakes during our retirement.  We are new to sailing, but something we have always wanted to do.  We are going to be taking sailing classes in order to get ourselves ready.  We currently live in Ohio.

I wa wondering which of the Com-Pac boat you would recommend?  First some parameters.  I am 6'1" tall and I don't want to be too cramped below.  I can't afford a new 27 footer or above, but could afford the smaller ones.  I would, of course purchase a good used boat.  We do want a boat we could cruise on for a week or more at a time.

I like the looks of the Horizon Cat, but I don't know.  What are your suggestions?

I am looking forward to getting to know all of you.

Thanks!

[brackish]

Welcome!

My first advice would be to take the lessons with a goal of certification to be qualified to do bareboat charters.  Then do a couple of bareboat charters first, see how it goes with the size of the boats you select.

None of the cat boats nor the sloops 23 and below have standing headroom if that is an issue.  Enough room is like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder.  I could easily cruise a week on my 23, but my wife would consider it uncomfortably confining.

The Catboat guys should chime in here, but I would think the Horizon Cat would be a comfortable, flat sailing, forgiving boat, that doesn't necessarily go to weather as well as the sloops.  Still no standing headroom, but a lot of lateral space below.

Moving up to a 27 would give you standing headroom, an enclosed head, and a full featured galley, things that would make extended cruising much more than camping.  The 25, no longer in production, may also have some of those features.

[Salty19]

Welcome to the forum!

I would say for a week or more of cruising, and for Lake Erie, you're probably looking at a CP23.   As you are probably aware Lake Erie can get very rough and the weather is unpredictable up there.  That would require as stable of a boat as you can get. The Compacs would apply here, they are more stable than others. 

Note the Horizon cat and the CP19 are about the same size, more or less. The CP19 is a sloop, the Horizon a cat boat. I think the Horizon enjoys a wider beam, so room below is probably significantly more on the Horizon (have never seen one though).   However what one person considers a lot of room may be different from other opinions. On any of the sub-23 boats you won't be able to stand up in the cabin, but certainly can store a lot of gear and sleep well at night.

I'm happpy to show you my CP19XL sometime over the winter.  The boat is stored in Utica, OH.  Its not for sale mind you but at least you can see the cockpit and accomodations below to compare with others.   I would cruise for a week on the 19 but the first mate would only be to take about 3 days of confinement.  Send me a PM (click my name then click send a personal message) if you're interested.   

Lastly, what is your budget?  The newer cat boats are significantly more expensive ($25K + whereas an older used 19 or 23 can be had from $5-$10K or a little higher for one that is well equipped and taken care of.

[rwdsr]

Welcome Butterchurn,
I'm originally from Piqua, Ohio, just west of Columbus a ways.  Transplanted down here to Tennessee.  Getting ready to drive up there early in the morning.

BobD

[bmiller]

Welcome.

My wife and I have spent close to a month our 27. I wouldn't try that on anything smaller. We can stand up, stretch out in the v-berth, have an enclosed head and can move around without too much trouble. The storage on our boat is unmatched in any boat her size. 50 gallons of water is nice to have also. And when the wind picks up the 27 comes into her own. When the wind dies having a reliable diesel is worth it's weight in gold.

Ours may be on the market next spring. It sits on a trailer and will not be the least expensive boat out there, but worth it.

Regardless of which Com-Pac you buy you'll be hard pressed to find a better built boat.

[Bob23]

Butter:
   Welcome. I own a 23 and I love her. And I could cruise alone on her for a long time if need be. But I could also live in a VW bus, too! I'd echo Bills words. I've been aboard the 27's and there is tons of room. I'm sure you could find a used one around. I've heard that the 25's don't sail all that well.
   Bill: What's this about Pooka being on the market? Enlighten us. And happy Thanksgiving to all!
Bob23

[bmiller]

   Bill: What's this about Pooka being on the market? Enlighten us. And happy Thanksgiving to all!
Bob23

We are in the market for a larger cruising boat, someplace warm (thermometer is in the negative this AM). If and when we find one we can afford we will sell Pooka to help fund the new boat. Pooka is a cruiser, in my opinion, and we would not need two cruisers. However we will get a smaller boat for daysailing around here.  Maybe a suncat!!!

Right now it's in then probable stage, right after we settle some real estate stuff.

[curtisv]

Hello!

I have just discovered Com-Pac sailboats and I am quite taken with the photos I have seen. 

I am a college VP and coming up on retirement in a couple of years.  My wife and I would like to do extensive cruising in the Great Lakes during our retirement.  We are new to sailing, but something we have always wanted to do.  We are going to be taking sailing classes in order to get ourselves ready.  We currently live in Ohio.

I wa wondering which of the Com-Pac boat you would recommend?  First some parameters.  I am 6'1" tall and I don't want to be too cramped below.  I can't afford a new 27 footer or above, but could afford the smaller ones.  I would, of course purchase a good used boat.  We do want a boat we could cruise on for a week or more at a time.

I like the looks of the Horizon Cat, but I don't know.  What are your suggestions?

I am looking forward to getting to know all of you.

Thanks!

Welcome to the forum.  (btw - you didn't give a name).

Sailing lessons are helpful but they are fairly expensive.  Getting "bareboat certified" ends up costing nearly $1,000.  Books are less expensive but by themselves are not adequate.  Chartering is great fun but can be very expensive, in the $4,000 per week range in the Caribbean counting airfare, provisioning, etc.  In BVI the smallest boat you can charter is a two cabin 31 footer.  On other Islands, such as Antigua, the smallest boat is about 36-40 feet depending on charter company and usually has three cabins.  Charter companies want experienced sailors so chartering is not a way for someone new at sailing to gain experience.  Though it is great fun, its expensive.

Of course you can charter with a captain or go on a sailing certification charter and get bareboat certified in 7-10 days on a boat with quite a few other people for under $2,000 per person.  Not a bad way to spend a vacation if you go with one of the Caribbean deals.  The sailing certification charter is probably the fastest way to learn to sail, though it is a bit costly.

Many people on this list bought their small compac for less than a weeks chartering and went out and learned how to sail.

A lot of sailors take only the basic keelboat sailing course, or none at all and learn from other sailors.  If you don't have a sailing friend to learn from, then that basic keelboat course is very valuable to get you started and might quietly pay for itself in preventing boat damage that could occur with a beginner going out without a mentor.  The best way to gain experience is to buy a small boat, read up on sailing, and go out and sail.  Then buy a larger boat when you know more about what you like.

One thing that you will hear from sailors is that the smaller the boat, the more it gets sailed.  This is true because a larger boat is much more work (and expense) to maintain and a smaller boat is easy to keep up and easy to sail.  Trailoring for a few years (or indefinitely) is a good option for some.  Raising the mast on a CP16 is quick and easy.  A little less easy on a CP19.  Requires a gin pole or second person on a CP23 and is a bit of work, and is really a chore on a CP27 (better to use a crane).  Larger than that and you need a boatyard with a crane.

I've been fortunate enough to pick a boat that I still love to sail 10 years later.  I will likely go to a larger boat when I retire.

One more thing to keep in mind is who will crew for you.  If your wife is enthusiastic about sailing you are a very lucky man.  If not, you may find that you have someone who will provide minimal help or doesn't want to sail with you at all.  If you learn to single hand and take on most or all of the work of sailing, then your wife may be much more inclined to sail with you.  If she perceives this as another form of work, then you'll be sailing solo.  That is another reason to choose a smaller boat.  It is very easy to single hand a CP23 or smaller.  Many people do single hand a CP27 and experienced sailors can single hand much larger boats, but it is much more work.  Too large a boat and you end up motoring a lot because it is harder to tack the larger boat.  Tacking a small boat is much easier (almost trivial with some experience).  If you can very reliably fast tack, you can sail in tight quarters where others would need to motor.

There are plenty of used boats on the market.  Again, if you know someone that knows boats, it helps when looking at boats.  I'd venture to say that many boat owners do not know what they are doing and a lot of boats on the used market could be made to sail a lot better with not much in the way of changes.  You need someone with some experience to help find a good boat and to know what it will need to sail well.  The smaller the boat, the less the financial risk if you don't make a wise first purchase.

I certainly don't want to tell you what to do.  There is no single right way to get started.  I may be biased but I feel that compac is among the better choices for a first boat because they are very solidly built, forgiving to sail, and they are good looking boats that sail well.  They are not the fastest thing on the water.  They are slow in very light air being a bit heavy for a small boat.  They hold their own when the wind picks up a little and sail fairly well to windward.  In strong conditions they are stable but develop too much weather helm, which can be corrected with some minor changes.  Compacs are out on the water comfortably sailing long after the wind has become too strong for most boats of the same size to be sailed at all.  There are also even heavier and sturdier small boats, mostly older vintage, such as Cape Dory, Bristol, Flicka, that are even heartier in strong conditions, but few if any still in production AFAIK.

Curtis

[Caboose]

Before any money leaves your hand, try and do a few free things first. Find a local marina where they have sailboat races. Go hang out and see if anybody needs crew. Show up with a pair of sailing gloves and a six pack. The bigger the boat, the more crew she needs. You'll learn a lot about sailing. You might be "rail meat", but you'll be out on the water.

Headroom - Yes it matters, but not as much as you think. The main object is to make sure you can lay down and be comfy for those overnights. Think of headroom like a walk-in closet. Most folks don't spend a lot of time in them. It's the same on the boat. You also have to remember that sailboats lean. You'll only be walking upright while at anchor or at the slip. Imagine that walk in closet at 12-20 degrees. Now you know why there's a slew of handy hand holds placed around. Add to that the lack (hopefully) of hard corners.

[capt_nemo]

     After reading your question I was all set after 30+ years of sailing/boating to offer words of encouragement and enlightenment. However, after reading the replies, I believe curtis and caboose have said it rather well. I will emphasize starting with a small affordable boat and sail, sail, sail, under all conditions of wind and weather. And, after asking yourself the question "How will I really use this cruising boat?" answer it as  honestly as possible after careful, thoughtful, and practical consideration. Then take some time to look at some of the great variety of sailboats out there (on paper and in person) that might satisfy your needs. In my experience, after you've done your "due dilligence", when you see "Her" you'll know it's the boat for you!
capt_nemo

[curtisv]

On the headroom thing.  Its a personal comfort thing and so it is a personal preference.

I sail a CP23 which has generous kneeling or sitting headroom but no where near standing headroom except for small children and very vertically challenged adults.  I have no issue staying two week on board.  As was pointed out in the "walk in closet analogy" very little time is spent in the cabin.  OTOH, I have mostly single handed since my wife isn't comfortable with the idea.  She's also not comforable being seasick and to go anywhere I have to start out going out into the Atlantic, but that's a different topic.

That said I have also been on larger boats, up to 50 feet.  The larger among them seem to have cathedral ceilings and with good set of clear hatches a lot of light and ventillation.  It sure is nice to have a "real galley".

For extended cruising, the CP27 is way more boat than the CP23 (or any of the catboats).  In addition to standing headroom, a real galley, a shower, and so on.  It is also quite a bit more work and/or money to maintain, but there is the tradeoff.  A good rule of thumb is the interior space and the cost of maintaining a boat both go up as the cube of the length.  If you plan to sail with your wife it will be very important that she is also comfortable with the boat, and by comfortable, considers being on it a luxurious vacation rather than a spartan adventure.  [Unless of course she likes spartan adventures in which case consider yourself extremely lucky.]

Anyway, do try a few boats before you buy and consider both taking lessons, and chartering.  In the end, you will own and sail your boat so the opinion that matters is yours (and maybe more so the Admiral's).

Curtis