19 vs. 23 question.

[Bob23]

   I'm thinking of upgrading (downsizing?) from my 1985 23/2 Koinonia to a 1986 19/2. Aside from the obvious differences, does anyone out there in sailing cyber-land have any feedback on such an endeavor? I've only sailed a 19 once and was impressed with the form stability of the craft. I know that the 16 and 23 share a different designer than the 19 and it sure shows when you see them out of the water.
   Realizing I have an uncanny ability to make a wrong decision, I put this question out to all you great folks on the site. I usually try to get as much information as possible before making any major decision. Taking account that you really don't know my sailing habits all that well, I will take all feedback you can offer.
   I know some of you have done extensive cruising, so-to-speak, on your 19's. I'd appreciate your take on the 19's ability to handle gusts and high winds. Hey, none of you have capsized, have you?
Bob23...always grateful for help.

[hitchhiker]

Could I ask why you will downsize your boat?  I am curious because I want to have cp23 in the future instead of SunCat.

[Craig Weis]

"I know that the 16 and 23 share a different designer than the 19 and it sure shows when you see them out of the water."

There you go. You answered your own question.

Let me preface my remarks to come by saying that I have never sailed on a 23.

But I have 'toured' a 23 several times on land and on the water dock-side and have always come away with the impression that too much was crambed into too little.

I don't need a pull out anything for a day sail. I don't need a pull-out table to navigate nor a pull-out to wash the dishes [I just chuck mine in a mesh bag and tow them behind the boat for a few minutes].

I can't see what I gain. I can't stand up and walk around. So I'm still crawling in either boat. Storage is the vee birth for me. And lets face it one does not spend a lot of time below deck unless your horizontal. The vee birth is about the same, as is the quarter births and about the only real difference is that it becomes that much harder to reach the outboard motor if you don't have the 23 that was fitted with a stinky diesel. That 'bulkhead for privacy' won't provide any privacy and it is not structural so I'd blow mine away if I owned a 23.

I think the factor pointing me to a 19 is that the 19 was 'scientifically' design assisted and tank tested by NASA and the underwater shape gives the best sailing when stood up-right, not heeled over. Which is good for us old folks. And young kids. It is easier to tow and to store. Lets face it she is no sharp chined sharpie with a bulb keel that will snap your neck upon acceleration, but it never was meant to sail that way. A few rudder improvements and a furler and she's set for the day or a weekend of camping. I don't really want to say a 23 is a dog but she's no 19.

But a 27 is a completely different story. I'd love a 27 but sure could not afford one. And as always the bigger the boat the less you go sailing. Its a KISS thing.

Ahhh stupid me. I guess I don't remember seeing that the bulkhead replaced the compression post. Thanx. Yea don't take that thing out! Another reason why I'll pick the 19.
skip.

[Shawn]

" I don't really want to say a 23 is a dog but she's no 19."

Your right, the 23 has about 2/3 of a knot high hull speed due to its 4' longer water line. Also more sail area per pound of displacement.

Shawn

[David V.]

I haven't seen a CP23 yet, but I've owned a CP16 and currently own a CP19. The 16 was a blast to sail and the 19 is sedate in comparison. Therefore I suspect the CP23 is also fun to sail - the same designer. The CP16 got small fast with more than two aboard. I often sail the 19 with my wife and three children and we seem to do alright. I'd like to go bigger, but I don't think you can go much bigger and have a reasonable trailer sailor. In truth, I use the CP19 as a day sailor, at 6'3", the bunks aren't great for an overnight.
Ultimately, only you can decide what factors are most important. The CP19 is reasonable to tow and with some forethought and a little ingenuity you can get the setup and take-down times to within the 20 min. range. Kids don't seem to be able to handle much longer. As far as stability is concerned, I sail in the Upstate NY area (inland lakes) and I have not encountered weather that is beyond the capabilities of this boat. I on the other hand have. Thirty five knots on Lake Champlain and the boat was fine, but I needed to get off the water. My point is the boat is rock solid and maybe even boring at times, but it tows well and I haven't yet found anything to replace her with. I suspect I'll have this one for a long time.

[Bob23]

   Many thanks to all you fellow Compac-tors who responded!
   Hitch: I'm thinking of selling my beloved Koinonia, 1985 23/2 simply for financial reasons. I love the boat, have put countless hours and near countless $ into improving and maintaining her, but financially, this could be a bad year for me. I may be forced to sell.
   Skip: I always appreciate your feedback. The main difference in the way the two sail, as far as I have learned, is that the 19 has more form resistance to initial heel. (Wow! Sounds like I know what I'm talkin' about!) While you can't stand in a 23 unless you are 3 1/2' tall, the interior is night and day compared to a 19. It is possible to live aboard a 23. Don't tear out the bulkhead! It transfers the mast loads to the keel! 
   dserrell: Thanks for your comments on trailering. At present, that is not an issue because I launch at a marina via travellift. But having a more trailer-able boat might open up more cruising grounds. Interesting note on beam: As I stood looking at the 19 I might buy, eyelevel with the waterline, I was checking out her beam at the waterline. Comparing that to the pictures I have of my 23 in the same position, I'd be willing to bet that the 19 is only a bit narrower...maybe even the same! Maybe someone here on the site has that information.
   shawn: Of course, those hull speed calculations are true, but only a small part of the picture. My sons Irwin FreeSpirit (21') has a similair hull shape but much more hard-chined than my 23, carries hardly any ballast, doesn't have a keel but rather a verically adjusting daggerboard, and he will walk away from me in light to medium winds. After it gets blowin', my 1300 pound keel takes over. The shear weight of the 23 really helps in chop.
   David-V: I certainly don't want boring! And, even though I have dreams of sailing to Bermuda, in reality I'll probably just daysail or some overnights. Even the 23 is great for this, though.
   TO ALL: Thanks so much! This is a heart-wrenching decision but your help is making me more informed. PeterG, skipper of the venerable s/v Beagle has offered to take me out sailing with him on his 19 this weekend. Actually, I kind of invited myself! So I'll get some more first-hand information. Keep those comments coming!
Bob23..off to grind the beans to make the coffee that wakes me up!

[Shawn]

Bob,

"those hull speed calculations are true, but only a small part of the picture."

Which is why I also listed sail area/displacement, basically a sailboats version of HP to weight ratio. That is the 'engine' that drives your boat. Your hull speed is the maximum speed that engine will bring you to in a displacement hull.

Your son's boat has a SA/D of 21.82, the Compac 23/3 has 19.23. He has more sail area then you per pound of displacement... a better HP to weight ratio. He will be driven better in lighter air below hull speed then the 23. When there is enough (or more then enough) wind to get to hull speed then you have the advantage due to water line length.

The 19s SA/D is 17.74. Its hull speed is lower and it has less 'engine' then the 23.

Shawn

[Bob23]

Shawn:
   Interesting and cool. Thanks, Bob23

[David V.]

Bob,

I will be the first to admit I am completely ignorant in this situation, but it sounds like the main reason you are considering trading boats is a financial one. When I sold my CP16 and bought the CP19, I thought the difference in maintaining the two would be larger, however the costs have been almost the same. Would downsizing to the CP19 be that big a difference? Could you back off on some of the expenses for a year until the economy turns around a bit? I just hate to see anyone who has put so much time and effort into a boat give it up for financial reasons, when finances can change so quickly.

David

[kchunk]

Sorry, this post is off topic.

David, when are you heading to the keys and where are you launching? I'm heading down Wednesday and launching at South Dade marina.

http://www.southdademarina.com/

[tenacity]

In response to downsizeing.
I owned a 1986 CP-19/II. Purchased from Pauls Sailboats in Gibraltor boatyard, Gibraltor, Mi. I sailed her on Erie and Huron and loved the way she sailed and handled.
The 19 is a stiff sailor with very little heel. Ive been in 25mph winds with gusts to 35 with 4'-6' chop.
I do believe the 19 would never capsize. If hit by a good gust at about 33 degrees of heel the keel comes out of the water and the boat turns into the wind and waits for you to respond, lol. This has happened to me on more then one occassion.
With regrets I sold that 19 and purchased a 1986 23/II. Must be the 4 foot itis syndrome, lol. Id take my 19 back anytime.
Althought the 23 is appointed well with the dbl stateroom and all the teak plus all the room. The 19 is still the boat for me. Trouble is trying to find one in decent condition.
The only thig I would change is the Trailer. A tandem like the 23s would make for much more towing comfort.

Regards, Mark