What are the limits?

[harleysail]

A few weeks ago, I encountered a rather unpleasant and unexpected wind.  When I started out, there wasn't much wind at all so I had full main and full jib up and was sitting back reading a book.  It wasn't long before the winds started to pick up to maybe 10 to 12 knots.  Once I got to the middle of the lake and within about 20 minutes, the winds picked up even more and I was faced with probably 25 to 30 knot sustained winds with 35 to 40 knot gusts and some serious white caps.  The gusts were the scary part.  I'm new to sailing and my lack of experience showed.  The gusts were enough that the rails would dip into the water.  I kept pointing into the wind so I could reef the main but the winds were just too much so after three runs to the bow, I was able to pull in the jib and and then the main and motor back to the dock.  

I'm fairly comfortable with a consistent wind but when I get hit with these stout gusts, I'm afraid the boat will flip over throwing me in the drink.  Has anyone had the 16 go over far enough for the sails to hit the water?  Will the boat heel that far?  I'd like to know the limits so I'll feel a bit more comfortable should this happen again.  Not that I want to sail in that kind of weather but just in case.  It seems that the amount of ballast will automatically upright the boat should it go over and the design of the hull allows it to heel over but it's still scary!

I was out with my brother last weekend and we experienced a similar situation on his Compac 19 and it wasn't any more fun with company on board.  We passed one poor sailor sitting on the bottom of his sailboat waiting for water rescue because he did capsize.  That is not a position I want to be in.

[Gil Weiss]

The limits are what you are comfortable with and how much you can handle. I read Ralph's report on your experience last weekend.  High wind gusts are not easy to deal with nor are the "comfortable".

These boats can probably deal with more than we can. Personally, at this stage in my life, I sail for enjoyment, relaxation and some moderate excitement. When it ceases to be "fun" I head for the dock.

The guy sitting on the bottom of his boat was not having fun!

Cheers, Gil

[Ralph Erickson]

Harleysail, you are being a big sissy.  These boats are tough. Why, I had my CP 19 out with my brother last weekend and we had her rail 2" from the water the whole time with white caps and gusts to 50 knots.  You  just need to practice more.  (All said with tongue firmly planted in cheek - disclaimer for you novices, don't try this at home - nobody should be out in those conditions!!!!)

Ralph (Harleysail's brother with the CP19!)

[mgoller]

I've been out in the 16 in heavy gusts and I didn't have roller reefing.  I have experienced lee helm in heavy gusts which is disconcerting.  Pull the main in to see if you can balance the sails.  You should have heavy weather helm for safety.  The 16 will heel, she will push down and head up with strong gusts.  This will give you the sensation of lack of control but the boat is doing what she was designed to do.  Try to keep both sails just equally off a luff.  If the winds are still so strong you are taking water over the rail even with all weight on the opposite rail you'll have to reef down, no choice!
You have to be practiced and the only way to get practice is to do it.  Have a plan. 
Getting the jib down is the key and that can be tricky if you are by yourself or your wife refuses to go forward which she will.  send her below for provisioning the rum.
But, if you need a moment to collect yourself just let go of everything and the boat will head up and the sails will flap.  It will be as loud as a helicopter in a church but don't panic.
Ok, so now you have a breather - breathe!  Now before doing anything else think about how you will rig a downhaul for the jib before sailing again.
Don't try reefing the main yet.
Go forward and get the jib down, hang on to something while doing this.  I use my teeth around the anchor line so if I fall in I can slow the boat down.
Now the jib is down and you will have a big adrenaline rush and the boat will be heaving in the white cap chop.  This is the time to check the rum supply.  Just have a short sip to test the rum.  Before putting the cap back test it again.
If the rum is good keep it close at hand.
Now trim the main in and tighten the outhaul and down haul to flatten it.  Fall off the wind and get some control.  Rum the test one more time.  You deserve a little.  Send your wife below to check the charts.
Now the wind is up and you have to tack back to the dock with main only.  That's going to require fast reaches and quick tacks.
I have reefed while underway single handed and it is hard.  The minute you start dropping the main the sail will belly out and you'll heel over.  If you're going to reef just power through it and get it done.  Even if it isn't pretty get the reefs in and then primp later.  Tighten her back up.
I've sailed under reefed main in very high winds and it can be boring.  Everything around you is whistling and churning and you're only doing a knot and a half.
This is the time to pour yourself a little cup in a rum.  All is well and you are heading for home.  Then comes a wind shift and you have to choose between the rum or loosening the main sheet.  Hold onto rum the.  Let go of the tiller and she'll head up by herself.
Once the gust has passed finish the rum so you have both hands.
The 16 will weathervane with just main up.
Sheet in a little and away you go.
Get up some speed, now with a pirate's flourish start talking out loud, "prepare to come about - hard a lee"
Poomffff, the main comes over and you're flying for home and cursing the wind, ahhhrg!
Curse the rocks and the waves while at it and rum some more pour.
Now the wind comes up to hurricane force and the main rips down the middle as you near the dock.  Stand up with mug in hand and fist raised high with the tiller pressed hard against your leg.
15 feet before impact release the main and turn up wind bumping the dock with a thud.
Now that's sailing!

[multimedia_smith]

I've had the rail actually in the water with the 16 a couple of times... it takes on a few gallons and then heads up... spilling the water into the coclpit... in these conditions it's a good idea to have the hatch board (or at least a lower section) in place to keep the water out of the cabin as it sloshes across.  At this point I either have the scupper plugs out or I am taking them out.  Either way, it drains right out. 

One time I just kept it from heading up and just held the line... it does reach a point where it holds and won't go further... there is so much air spilling off the main, it can't push further down.

The best thing I can tell you is to set up the boat for the conditions.  As Gil says, make yourself a jib downhaul...
http://com-pacowners.com/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=49&pos=16
it's easy and cheap, and is much better than running up there if you don't have to.  The only time you then have to go up forward is to change the jib to a smaller one if you didn't anticipate the conditoins or if (as in your case) the conditions change radically once you're already out.  I've gone up front to change from the 155 and it's not fun, but has to be done.  BTW, I always wear a belt connected to the cabin cleat with a strong rope when I (or anyone) goes forward and most of the time when I'm single handing.

I now have a storm jib and a heavy air main with some serious reef points.  I prefer this to roller reefing as I can still use the vang to flatten the main.  I have not had the rail under the water since I got these.  The 110 standard jib is OK for most anything up to almost 20 kts. 

One thing I would personally recommend is that it's easier to make headway and tack with the jib only as opposed to the main only.  The main is the sail that wants to push you over.  If you reef the main enough you can still use it.

On a final note... these little boats are designed like lifeboats... they can really take some amazingly bad conditions... their size makes them bob over the waves like a cork as opposed to spanning crests and slamming down.  In short, as a lot of folks have said here, the boat can definitely take more than you can or would care to.  But this should instill confidence that it can get you home safely.

It's good to gain experience with a variety of conditions and then the next time you are presented with them, you can avoid panic... take your time and deal with it.

Best regards
Dale

[Gil Weiss]

Dale brings up a good point. When the going gets tough put in the hatch boards. Also put on life jackets. Do this in anticipation of worsening conditions.

The jib down haul was an easy addition to my CP16 before I bought the roller reefer. I also find that keeping an extenable boat hook in easy reach is a help to unfoul a line or control the jib after you lower it.

My biggest concern when in bad conditions is being ejected from the boat. 

A few years ago two small cruiser type boats, like a CP16, took on water and sunk at the lake we sail on when a sudden summer storm came up. No hatch boards in place and poor cockpit drainage did the job. One of these boats went to the bottom and the other continued to float with the hull submerges.

I never plugged my scuppers  . . . wet feet is not as bad as being wet all over someone once said.

[Rick Klages]

This is the time to check the rum supply.  Just have a short sip to test the rum.  Before putting the cap back test it again. If the rum is good keep it close at hand.

Seems we had the same sailing instructor!

ick

[Paul]

Just curious.  What book were you reading?  And, were you whistling?

Actually, this fall and winter is a great time for folks to brush up on their reading and for those still sailing in these seasons to practice what they study.  Consider reading up on heaving to.  It's the most secure way to take a break in any condition.  Also, it's less stressful on the sails and rigging.  I've hove to in heavy conditions and was able to safely reef.

Consider establishing a man over board plan.  So, if either you or your mate go into the drink, you can know and expect what to do next.

Knowing this is one thing.  Doing it is another.  So, when conditions are "comfortable" and fun.  Take some time to practice heaving to, jiffy reefing, and MOB plan.  You may want to use a ball or a hat for MOB.  That'll probably keep the crew happy.

I have found that barring a large wave from a beam, it's terribly unlikely a CP-* is going over mast in the water.  As Dale stated, it's part of their design.

Just one more thought.  It would be prudent to check standing rigging, running rigging, and sails after stressing them so much.  Especially, if the age of such is unknown.  It wasn't long ago that one of the forum members was dismasted.  Rare, to be sure.  But, let's keep it rare, eh?

$0.02

[Craig Weis]

Big blows are very scary in anyboat.

Keep your head, no way can you reef by coming into the wind in hopes of reducing sail unless the reef system is set-up way ahead of time and practiced. All sailors know this is not going to happen. Reef before leaving the dock.

Anyway sail loose and let the main sheet out and dump wind from the main. Furl in the head sail. Or douse the main and sail on a reduced head sail.

Avoid going too far over by staying on top of the sheet control. As the boat heels further then wanted play out the sheet, relax and keep a mind on the tiller/rudder inputs. Sail smooth and consider adding a foiled IdaSailor rudder, helping to keep hull speed up and hull stalling, where a big gust can lay the boat over if the hull is stalled. That energy has to go somewhere and instead of laying the boat over, may as well move the boat forward. skip.

[mgoller]

Great advice here, all of it.

Yesterday I was out in 30 mph winds.  I motored out and hoisted a full main sail and flattened her down.  I sailed around for quite a while with just main.  Tacking was easy and the speed was moderate.  The greatest heeling was less than 10 degrees.

Then I put out half the genoa, which when half out is probably 1/4 power.  The balance was so nice the tiller was centered and had no pressure.

Occasionally a gust would hit and I would just spill the extra energy by heading up.

The worst thing to do in high winds is stall.  So don't luff too long or you'll lose tiller control and be left with a possible turn leeward and overpowered run.  If that happens work back to a reach by heading up and at the same time sheeting in.

In really high winds I favor a broad reach, its the easiest point of sail to manage.  You can always spill and keep control.

I do see what Skip means about the danger of stalling and then getting hit by a gust.  The only thing to do is let out the sails to provide some forward motion.  The tiller will be useless until you're going.

I do practice heaving to, but haven't tried it for reefing in heavy winds.  I'm not sure that would work for taking down a hanked on jib.

Usually when I reef in heavy winds I head straight into the wind with some play in the main sheet because the boat is going to blow off wind.  I release the jib and let it flap so it doesn't turn me leeward so hard.

Then I hustle.  I drop the halyard 2 feet, and then pull down hard on the aft jiffy reef and tighten on the mast cleat.  Then I pull down hard on the forward jiffy reef and cleat it off.  I wont get these just right.  Then I gather the sail and tie off the four reefs with a reef knot. 

By the time I do all this and hoist the sail and downhaul the boat is usually picking up speed but weathervaning.  It is noisy and frantic but safe.

[Paul]

Sounds like a plan.  Good to practice on nice days, so you can be ready on "game day."

Honestly, I also typically dowse the jib pointing into the wind.  If it's howling out, I like to heave to when dowsing the jib.  That way my jib is on the lee side of the boat.  Once the downhaul is taut, I can quickly, but carefully, go forward to tie it down on the bow rail with a  gasket.  This prevents the jib from partially filling and affecting the handling of the boat.

IMHO, as long a captain and crew have a safe plan and can implement it efficiently in a practiced manner, they're on their way to good times.

[B.Hart]

I have a meter on my boat that warns of excessive heeling on wind gusts, its called a nervous wife. lol HAPPY SAILING BILL

[harleysail]

You've all given me a lot to think about and try.  For obvious reasons I would prefer not to sail in heavy winds but I think we should all be prepared for changes in conditions.  Marcus, I believe you must have met my wife as she would definitely not be the one to go forward to pull in the jib be it on the high seas or at the dock.  She will be the designated rum runner!  You've all boosted my confidence and I'm anxious to get out and practice.  Thank you for your responses!  Safe sailing to all.

Al

[roland cobine]

im not much of a rum drinker but ill heed the advise and practice practice practice.