Another Lazy Jacks Post

[Dave-in-RI]

Hi. I've searched the phrase and read every post about them. However, I do have a new question just to verify a suspicion. In 2-3 weeks I'm going to pick-up a used Sun Cat without lazy jacks, but want to add a DIY set. I'm also upgrading the Mastendr system from the regular "use your arms" kind to the Plus version which is a halyard / gin pole setup. Reasons for both mods is having two kids under 3, so I'd like to stay in the cockpit as much as possible, plus I'll have a low bridge to motor under any time I want to sail someplace larger than a river. It's my hope that with both mods, on the return trip I could just drop the sail, drop the mast, and scoot under the bridge, all from the cockpit (mast pin aside). Nobody gets covered in excess sail, nobody falls overboard while I'm up front (self included) while lowering mast underway, etc.. I could even raise it all back up on the other side of the bridge to sail home, James Bond -like, and of course use it on the way outbound. So my question— is that an accurate presumption that I'd A) be able to do that, and B) need lazy jacks to do so (especially given the kiddies, now 10mos and 3yrs, so for years to come before they become useful crew and my wife is freed to be same)? Also, C) would I need to modify their set-up in any way to account for how I intend to use them (almost always in conjunction with lowering the mast for a few minutes while motoring underway)? Thank you!

[bruce]

Dave,

I do like lazy jacks, but I would hold off until you have the boat and see how dropping the mast at the bridge goes before adding more lines. When the mast folds down, the peak halyard, the shrouds, and particularly lazy jacks, fold loosely into sail/spar bundle. Next time you raise the mast, minutes or days later, expect the lines and rigging to tangle and have to be sorted out. The throat halyard, running tight to the mast, isn't usually a problem.

I've posted what works for me to keep the lines from tangling. Works great, but not extra steps I'd want to do underway, maneuvering around the bridge.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=10020.msg75805#msg75805

The river you'll be in as you approach the bridge isn't very wide, with some traffic and moored boats. My guess is that you'll be under power almost all the time. On the return trip, you'll be able to drop the sail as you transit the river. Throw a couple of sail ties around the sail and boom and it will be out of your way. Or, you may find that since you really don't have much room to sail immediately above or below the bridge, you just won't raise the mast until you pass under the bridge on the way out, or after the bridge on the return. Without lowering and raising the mast at the bridge every time, the lazy jacks would be easier to manage.

You could also consider a a simpler lazy jack design, with just a single line on both sides, rather than the inverted Y typically used. Probably would gather the sail almost as well, and be easier to manage on the fly.

[Dave-in-RI]

But if I wait, Bruce, how am I supposed to pass the time from now until then??!

[Dave-in-RI]

Also, the present bike path bridge height at MLWL is 5'. With a 4.5' tidal swing, and a 5.5' height of the Sun Cat above the water, at an average low tide I'd have 4' clearance, so I wouldn't always have to fully lower the mast into the bunched-up sail and lines etc., which I hope would help keep things untangled. On my Picnic Cat I learned that no matter how carefully / slowly you lowered the mast, it somehow tangled itself. So I'd lower it, then tighten up all the halyards and route them around the hinge/pin etc similar to you. Then you're not lifting extra poundage when raising the mast, which with the lever arm could feel like tons. That's what I mainly want to avoid— dealing with that when underway (or needing to anchor etc to deal with it). That's also why I plan to rig my own lazy jacks— it's just something to keep the sail off the crew in the tiny cockpit, and keep the foredeck free should I need to run up there and deal with something like a tangled mast.

Thank you for the input, it's always appreciated.

[bruce]

I'm sure you'll sort it out.

Just to be clear, I bring the lazy jacks and peak halyard to the long pin before a drop the mast. Separate step. Lines never have a chance to tangle.

I know Reuben Trane used a line to gather the lines and shrouds on his Hen boats to the boom gooseneck with a "line keeper" (aka gathering line), as the mast was lowered, for the same purpose. He would pull on the line keeper as necessary to take the slack out of the lines as it developed. The advantage to his idea is you don't need as long tails on the lazy jacks as my system does.

Not sure what "extra poundage" you see.

[Andre]

And even though I think Bruce mentioned it ....

SECURE THE BOOM AND GAFF BELOW THE HINGE WITH THE LONG PIN BEFORE LOWERING  THE MAST !

SECURE THE BOOM AND GAFF BELOW THE HINGE WITH THE LONG PIN BEFORE LOWERING  THE MAST!

DO NOT FORGET!

Repeat to yourself every time you do this, especially since you're contemplating doing it on the water when you may find yourself quite busy!

Andre

[Dave-in-RI]

You are so right, Andre. My prior Picnic Cat had the classic sail track damage from one of its prior owners and would spit-out the gaff sometimes. Even still, with the upcoming Sun Cat and my James Bond bridge plans, I never once remembered that would have to happen as part of it. Sounds to me like a new pulley gadget will need to be devised with a line led back to the helm! Like a downhaul for the whole kit & caboodle. Likely not, but I do hope very much not to widen that mast track because I wasn't paying attention. Secure the boom and....

[bruce]

Spot on, Andre. While experimenting with your set up, and tending the kids, you don't want to forget about this!

I've upgraded my halyard cleats to the same Spinlock cleats that come on the SC. I do this so I can handle them from the helm. My wife will pass them to me if they're coiled forward at the mast but then I can handle them raising or lowering the sail. She might need to grab the luff to help the throat come down. To release the Spinlock from the helm several feet away just requires a sharp upward snap, not hard to do.

SCs usually come with a third Spinlock to port as a boom downhaul. I know some have repurposed that for lazy jacks or a throat downhaul, a horn cleat at the base of the mast track can function for the boom downhaul just fine. Dwyer has them available, no holes to drill.

If you wanted to have the Mastendr Plus line available at the helm, a Spinlock might be just the answer. A throat downhaul, mentioned above, could be useful to bring the sail down, as well as hold the gaff securely below the hinge, obviating the need to use the long pin all the time. The lazy jacks could be rigged similarly. Adding one or two Spinlocks may prove very useful, and you already have the third installed Spinlock to port to experiment with. Of course, at this point your simple catboat is looking a bit less simple.

I will mention at this point that if the kids are prone to play with things, it may be prudent to install a horn cleat somewhere to back up the cleat as Com-Pac does in their installation of the Mastendr Plus (they use a basic cam cleat as the primary). Losing the headstay while sailing would likely bring the rig down. The other lines wouldn't be as critical.

[Jim in TC]

My 2cents on lazy jacks: while many (maybe most) folks like them, and some have gone so far as to say they are necessary, I have not been tempted to restore the system that was on our Sun Cat when we purchased used (all had been dismantled and some bits seemed to be missing). So I would echo Bruce's "check it out" advice. You do want to be diligent when dousing sail to be pointed exactly into the wind (probably true with jacks, too, am I right?) but I have not found it particularly tricky to get the sail down and secured, even in seriously difficult conditions.

I think the idea of a downhaul is a good one, and probably not too difficult, to make sure (MAKE SURE) the boom and gaff are below the hinge.

[bruce]

Yeah, we always try to come into the wind when we douse the sail. Lazy jacks will probably keep the sail on top of the boom, and out of the water if we aren't heeling much, but the slugs can bind if the sail is off to the side.

[bruce]

I forgot the critical point here. Off the wind, the lazy jacks function as a topping lift. The boom gallows works great to support the boom and protect the crew, but if you drop the sail with the boom beyond the reach of the gallows things will likely get wet.

I set the lazy jacks so the boom is held a couple of inches above the gallows, and bring it tight to the gallows with the sheet. Once the sail is up, that is carrying the boom as always, and the lazy jacks billow out enough so they don't bear on the sail. No adjustment necessary. When the sail is doused, the lazy jacks hold the boom just above the gallows as before.

Reefing may require some adjustment of the lazy jacks, depending or your set up.

[Jim in TC]

So it sounds to me as though the lazy jacks give you a bit of flex in dousing sail, more forgiving of falling off the wind. I can think of only one time we got in a bit of trouble with a poorly timed wind shift during that, and while we didn't wet the sail it was a close call. But quickly remedied with an alert crew.

[Dave-in-RI]

Things do get wet— I did that in my Picnic Cat when a big puff from another direction (on a lake) tried to fill the sail while I was dousing it, making me just miss the gallows (sheet was in but loose). My fault all around, but it was a first and hopefully last. Sure is much harder to hoist a sail with hundreds of pounds of water on it, ha. I can't remember but I think the gaff fell out of the splayed sail track, too. It was just a huge mess. My crew was a 2 year old boy and 1 year old dog, both being restrained by the admiral— not quick or available!

Lazy jacks as topping lift sounds good. After years of sloop sailing, I went to catboats for many reasons but especially the "one rope, one stick" Sunfish-like simplicity. Easier to convince people to come out with you, too, plus the fact it's good for keeping kids out of the way of important things. No jib lines every tack, etc. (also why I want a Nonsuch 30).

My whole view of this project is to make the Sun Cat a rather limitless gunkholing-weekender (boat camping) sailboat along the coast, because I don't have the bank account for a Rosborough and tow vehicle. So if I can go under bridges, explore rivers, go places I would in a powerboat, while having the obvious fun and economy of a trailer sailer, I'm in. I want the mast and sail to be able to go up and down on command from the cockpit, like running rigging, no tangles. "Bridge ahead: spin around & douse the sail into the lazy jacks, pull the boom/gaff downhaul below the hinge, lower the mast as much as necessary with the Mastendr Plus, motor under the bridge, pull a line to raise the mast back up, spin into the wind, hoist the sail (not wrapped in sail ties), and be on my way without much thinking or fanfare.