Thru bolting the Mast Step

[MacGyver]

DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to attack anyone's personal beliefs, or efforts to inform others, nor is my opinion uneducated (for those that don't know me) as my background in repair stems nearly 20 years, and from time to time I am still taking various jobs here at my home shop since my career change. This has been thought of and written to help generate discussion as well as some education, but also to see if there is possibly something missing from the thought process. I am always open to opinion as sometimes thinking outside ones own box helps solve issues more thoroughly. Happy Sailing!

With all the concern about thru bolting mast steps on the deck, I figure I would offer some opinion and education overall on construction and thoughts about overall build concerning the 19 itself, and anyone's (but more specifically my own decision) to through bolt a new mast step to the deck.

I have been looking at Ballenger Spars mast step, hinged version with the Vang bale included on the top most plate. This is SS completely, and this one versus the standard version which I think is made by or was once made by Dwyer Mast Company. The current one has 4 wood screws in it and a long vertical slot cut out that the bolt goes through and then through the mast to allow some up and down movement as well as some side to side movement. This also allows the stepping of the mast to have some slop during raising.

Looking at the interior and top deck construction, the 2 are joined however they were during the build process, whether it may be glued together or what not. The hardware, like wood handles, wood slides, the 2 blocks near the base of the mast, winch, etc are all through bolted through that constructed deck. Why then not through bolt the mast step to make it more secure? Many factors could go into this, but getting away from the more cost saving commendation efforts, I feel this is potentially for the reason of deck alignment and rigging relationship.

We all want the mast to be 90 degrees to the deck for the most part, not getting into raking the mast, or other tuning efforts usually found on racing rigs, etc. The sloppy nature of the mast base on smaller boats is typically for movement when raising the mast, and when tuning it to the decks natural tendency of lean, etc. This also is because most small boat sailors don't care for the incremental speed as much as they care for the sailing itself. I myself eye the mast up the best I can when tuning to ensure a straight rig, somewhat tight, whereas I have sailed with fellows that I have seen the opposite side stays during winds flop around under sail power causing some concern to myself.

The construction of the 19 has a solid center post, which is bolted to stringers (or bulkheads, etc) in the interior of the boat at the bottom. The top has a single screw going into the post from the top. This strengthens the hull, while also giving a continuance of force downward to the keel or bottom most of the boat itself.

Many boats are constructed using various methods, deck step masts, keel stepped, etc. Some of these variations do not have a "center post" but more so rely on extra bulkheads to hold the weight. I may be wrong here, and without research, I believe the CP23 has a open center doorway, flanked by walls that go to the underside of the top deck which essentially provides the strength of the center post.

Looking at rigs like those of Macgregor, and that hideous Hunter version, minus other makes of the power sail boats, most other rigs aren't as sturdy as the Com Pacs and are used on bigger boats, but then again, none have that beautiful classic look either. Hence why this rig could stand to fly a little more sail and has been modified so many times prior by other folks to do that and or elimination of stays, etc.

One of the largest issues folks discuss is basically rig failure, of the catastrophic kind. This could and has on many boats tore up the deck upon failure. But to me, I would typically see these boats and ask myself how the forces affected the overall boat issues, and what lead to the demise prior to making actual repairs. These questions always (from what I can remember) result with the fact that some kind of human error was to play. Whether that was improper care, or not paying attention to wind variables, improper tuning, horrible maintenance, etc.

Few times was it a freak accident....... and lets be honest, at the end of the day, a repair bill is well accepted over the fact of someone getting hurt!

I have stepped so many masts over the years, and thinking back to those many times, several if not the majority are through bolted. Many are also screwed into the deck as well.

I really feel that when concerning oneself with the idealism of what to do on a boat, one has to think about use, longevity, safety of others, safety of oneself, etc. Making those decisions primary and then concerning the build quality of the boats, I do plan to go the way of Ballenger Spars, and through bolt the step to make it easier to step the mast, taking my concern away from the step itself coming out of the deck, and eliminating the sway and wobble I experience when going up. The last time I put the mast up, I myself had a worrisome moment as I went up, like normal I powered through, but as I age, I feel like this is not something to screw around with. It is harder and harder to heal from injury but easier to suffer the injury in the first place......

I do hope to see some discussion, I am off to work now, and hope I covered the topic well, or at least helped stir some more thought into the subject!

Sailing is so much fun, and so unique. I truly hope this year 2022 is my year to get the boat back out on the water, and enjoy some time.

Mac

[kickingbug1]

    i sail a catalina 18 as many of you know. my mast step is through bolted and has given me no problems. the
boat is somewhat easier to rig as the bse of the mast is much closer to the companionway than the cp19. at 69 i can still easily step it by myself. the cp 16 i previously owned used wood screwswhich over time worked loose. lucky for me i noticed this one day while taking the rig down. im sure i could have easily been dismasted. after that i through bolted it to the deck. im with jason on this that one should check his rig now and again looking for any problems and to tune your rig correctly jason i hope to see you on the water this spring. give me a call if you want to go.

[brackish]

Well stated Mac, always good to get a number of opinions on the subject, particularly from someone with a lot of maintenance experience.

I formed my opinion on the first day of ownership of my 23 and it might not be relevant to the smaller Compacs.  When the prior owners, two strong women, and I attempted to lower the mast to make the boat ready for me to take home, we managed to mangle the mast step.  Admittedly, we were using the Compac supplied system to get it down which is not very good, but still I thought that the $30 step vs. a repair on the mast itself which would be very costly and difficult ( I used to work in an aluminum extrusion plant) given the probable grade.  The other possible outcome would be the thru bolted step would do significant damage to the cabin trunk itself.  Or maybe both of them would be damaged.  So I decided to go with the least cost repair option, the cheap step and possibly some minor pull out repair on the cabin trunk.  Even with potential for water intrusion which is more likely with all purpose screws than thru bolting, I'm still in my comfort zone, having repaired acres of core rot on boats of the past.  I do have a very good mast raising system having junked the Compac components, but I still am somewhat uncomfortable with the amount of lateral sway.

The only thing I've considered as change is the design of the cheap step. I would use the items below, from Dwyer and used on Precisions I believe.  That would be based on ease of use.  One of the hardest things when I am putting my mast up is getting the slots and holes lined up and putting the nylon spacers I use in between the step and the mast while putting the bolt in.  Below looks like a much better and quicker way to get that done.  If there is a gap between the mast and step, I would pre set the spacers before I shoved the mast forward.

[Bob23]

Hey Mac! Very thorough and you must be reading my mind! I plan to use the exact same part by Ballenger for my 23 and the needed mast foot from Dwyer. PeterG here has done this modification on his 23, through bolted to the deck with no problems.
The 23's have a very beefy rig for it's size and if the standing rigging is maintained and replaced when needed, dismasting should never be an issue. Of course this demands some attention to the wires themselves as well as the hardware.

The goal for me is to be able to raise and lower the mast with one person without the danger of it going sideways, a most unwanted motion which the factory mast foot certainly encourages.

  Another little modification I've done is to install a piece of 3/4" Azek (pvc building material) embedded in 4200 and screwed to the deck prior to installing the present factory mast foot. I didn't like the factory method of steel directly on fiberglass, seems to me to encourage a future leak, which I'm not crazy about repairing.

  You truly covered all of the bases here Mac, hope to see you once again on the water at CLR! Hope you are well and a very happy 2022 to you!!
Bob23

[Cruzin]

Hi Mac and friends and Bob!

Great job Mac! I have a new to me 87 Compac 27 and I want to do the hinged mast plate of some kind to make the mast easier to raise. I currently do not have any system to assist in this process. I have looked at the hinged bases and don't understand the mast base part. Is this to close off the end and provide a fitted base to bolt to the hinged base mainly? I think PBR Bob is planning this for his 23 so I will follow you experts on this change. Also who has the best mast raising system for the 27? Please share your wisdom and e perience please. I don't have a wife so I need to make the mast raising really easy for myself.  No offense Bob we just have to carefully who we associate with and you know your reputation and beer....

Dale

[brackish]

The goal for me is to be able to raise and lower the mast with one person without the danger of it going sideways, a most unwanted motion which the factory mast foot certainly encourages.

Bob, if that is your concern I don't think that will help.  I watched it happen during the first lowering as mentioned in my post above.  I actually watched the mast deform the weaker stock mast step and bend it beyond reuse.  I'm convinced that if that few inches of mast had been contained in a stronger, non sacrificial step the end of the mast would have been destroyed with a much more costly repair.  When the mast sways laterally with that long moment arm to the top which is where the motion starts, the force is pretty great.  The only way to control that is with well designed baby stays, a strong step will contain the base of the mast but also destroy it in my opinion.

When you added the 3/4" base plate under the step did you have enough length on your stays and shrouds to continue to use them without replacing?  I need just a hair more space above my furler extrusion to avoid some interference with other components up there when I use my furler, considering doing something like that to get it.

[Bob23]

Hello gents!
  I'm only following PeterG's lead in this, he's bravely risked his reputation by being a personal friend and fellow bourbon imbiber! He's used this exact system on his 23, which he no longer owns but which reportedly worked fine.

When raising and/or lowering the mast I always take into account the wind speed and direction. A strong wind from the side means a no-go but fortunately the boat being on a trailer, I can move it around as needed to suit the wind direction. I do plan to use baby stays as well, Brack. But having a hinged tabernacle just makes sense as opposed to the standard factory mast foot. My father in laws old Irwin Free Spirit 21 used a hinge, but not as robust as the Ballenger part.

I do know I'll need a gin pole of some kind and I have a few ideas as well as some magazine articles on gin poles too. When I added the 3/4" Azek pad I did indeed cut 3/4" off the bottom of the mast so there was no need for new shrouds or stays.

Dale: By just being on this site you're putting your reputation at risk! But you'll have fun and hopefully learn a lot too!

Cheers!
Bob23

[brackish]

Well not the answer I was hoping for, cutting the mast will give me no net gain at the top.  Seems like the only way to get what I want would be cutting the furler extrusion, but I would have to have the sail cut also, it uses all the furler extrusion.

System? Gin Pole? Bob, it has already been done for you.  The best that has ever been (I can't really take credit, Tom Ray was the guy who spread the word) is already on this site. It was literally so easy to make and use.  I've got a new version of the instructions that has some pictures added, need to find out how Tim added those arrows.  Or find out how to modify his version by adding my pictures. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/0B5ey9KTph16cZWlMQWQ1OXBKRkVkVWs1YTUxZWMyRHhLd0RN/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=111621828082220215373&resourcekey=0-XfTgpZT1K-7cUAaqWk1d4w&rtpof=true&sd=true

[Cruzin]

Thanks Brackish and Bob!

Has anyone installed a hinged mast step like the ones from Ballengar?

If installing the hinged mast step do I need the bottom fitting for the mast so that I have a fitted and secure the hinged base to the mast? So I would purchase the mast base and the hinged base both?

Brackish the mast raising system looks pretty simple and effective.

Thanks

Dale

[brackish]

Brackish the mast raising system looks pretty simple and effective.

Thanks Dale but a disclaimer.  It is designed for a 23.  If I had a 27 and needed to raise or lower the mast periodically, I would be looking for a marina or yard with a crane to do it so that it is supported from the top.  Certainly the components could be upgraded to do the job but with that longer mast I would be concerned about lateral sway without some very well placed baby stays.  Pretty sure if you lose that thing laterally it will ruin the mast by bending the base end, particularly if you do not have it in a sacrificial connection component.

I've used it on my 23 eighteen times either up or down without any problems, so it does work well.  On most of those times I've had to stop the process midway, trust the brake winch and go clear the standing or running rigging component that had snagged. Almost impossible go up without that happening.

[Bob23]

Dale: You do need the mast foot from Dwyer to use the hinged tabernacle from Ballenger. I'll try to find the part numbers for you;


https://ballengerspars.com/parts/29-hmbm30
https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=41&familyName=DM%2D450+Mast
For the Dwyer part the number is DH2121.

Keep in mind I haven't done this modification yet but these are the parts I'll be using on my 23.
Bob23

[Cruzin]

Gentlemen,

I see that Dwyer has a 2121H that appears to already have the hinged part. Bob is the 2121 the correct sized base for the 23 or the 27? Thanks!

I certainly understand the safety issues and ease of using a Marina crane. I hope to develop a safe hinged base system that I can safely raise the mast without a Marina crane rental. I know the issues as my 23 was a bit challenging!

Thanks so much!

Dale

[Damsel19]

On our 19 I through bolted the mast step decades ago.
We use a gin pole led to a cockpit winch. I have stays on the ginpole made of 3/8 staset.  They clip to the chain plates via dynema loops that are always in place.
By supporting the gin pole side to side there is only modest sway. The factory mast step accepts this with little trouble. I don't think any mast step or tabernacle could be expected to control mast sway while raising.  That is entirely on the raising system. On my cp16 that was my back. On the 19 it's the stabilized gin pole. I have often paused for several minutes in the middle of the process to free a tangled halyard etc.
A system I have never used is shear legs. I have a friend with a Rhodes 19. The rig is taller than a CP. He uses 2 legs that are attached to a fitting that runs in the mast track. A "down haul" forces the mast up and the rigid legs resting on either side of the cockpit virtually eliminate any sway.  I have also seen 2 legged gin poles that clip to each chain plate making for a very controlled lift.