More Sails

[Jasmid53]

I have one season of sailing under my belt. After I purchased my ComPac 16 I had new sails made. The jib being ripped and weakened from age and sun, was not worth repairing. The main was in useable condition, but I figured that after all the work fixing up the boat she deserved a whole set of new sails. I didn't know enough about what sails to get and looking back I was too ignorant about sails to ask the sailmaker anything but the most rudimentary questions.

I ended up have a 110 jib and stock main. Not a bad decision. Good for wings over 5 knots. The sailmaker - Doyle - did ask if I wanted a second reef, I said no, based on the fact that the original sail only had one reef point. After one season of sailing and being out in some heavy winds this may have been something I should have installed. More sailing experience and I'll know if this was a prudent decision.

In light winds the Lazy Dog II lives up to its name and just moseys along. All the while I see some of the big boats moving along at a nice pace with just a genoa head sail. So what I want to know is; can I add a genoa? I have roller reefing jib and can't see how I could do this. My boat has the jib traveler, so it is meant to use a genoa. I think. It's a 16-II or 16-III not sure which one though.

[brackish]

Sure you can add a Genoa.  You will have to put it on your furler and take your 110 off.  You can have foam luff panels added to your genoa and roll some of the sail up when you need to reef, but be advised it is not as good as changing hank on headsails.  Yes you can use just your headsail as you have seen some do.  however in heavier winds it is better to have a properly sized jib and a reefed main to get the right balance and the appropriate amount of weather helm.  That is a safety thing, will cause you to head up and spill in gusts rather than being knocked down.

I have a 110 and a 135 for my 23.  Most of the time I leave the 135 on.  Only in the strongest wind months do I put the 110 on.  It takes about 30 minutes dockside to change them out and I would not want to do it bouncing around at sea.  My furler is a CDI.

I'm sure some 16 sailors will comment on the best size for various conditions.

If you are just thinking about light air use with just a headsail, you might consider a drifter or an asymmetrical.  The Asy can be set up with your sail still rolled on your furler (see my avatar) and I more often than not use mine without shaking out the main.

[Duckie]

My 16 III is set up with a genoa on a furler.  I also have a second forestay with a hanked on 110 jib that I can add behind the genoa on the bow sprit.  There are two ways that I can use both stays.  One way I can use it  is to attach it to the top of the mast at the dock and tie it to the bottom of the mast with the sail hanked on and in a bag out of the way.  If I want to use the smaller sail, I furl the genny and attach the foot of the second stay to the sprit at a point about six inches behind the forestay, attach the sheets, and haul on the halyard.  I can do this under way, but the best way is to do everything at the dock before I get into a situation where I need it and am bouncing around in the wind. 

I have found that 16's sail pretty darn good on just the main.  The big genoa pulls pretty good by itself also.  Try different combinations.  That will give you a much better feel for what the boat will do and how it feels.  I really like my genoa, but I'm not afraid to roll it up if I need to. 

Al

[deisher6]

Hey Al:
C-16's do pretty well in light air.  When you get passed by a big boat, that does not have mylar sails, check out their stern for exhaust to see if they have the inboard running.

regards charlie

[Duckie]

I've only had one  bad day in light wind with my 16.  I have an asym, but I haven't used it yet, mostly because I usually use the 16 when it is blowing reasonably hard.  My weekender is my go to boat for light air.  It is unballasted and weighs about half what the 16 does with the same sail area.  I have tried using the genoa alone in light to sedate winds with pretty good results.  That sail pulls like a Clydesdale once it is set right.  It works best on a broad reach though. 

I see quite a few bigger boats sailing in the Duluth harbor under genny alone, and they are really scooting along.  I figure about half of them are motor sailing.  The way I think I can tell is their sail doesn't look like it is pulling.  It is hard to tell from a distance.  What I never see is a sailboat on the beach side of the harbor other than mine or a sunfish.  Shoal draft is a sin for some sailors, but to me it is a blessing.  I don't get run away from by many boats, and I point pretty much the same when I get my sails full of wind.  Without that she slips pretty bad.  That is just my lack of sailing skill.  I have tried motor sailing with my other boat, and I can certainly see its appeal.  I just can't shake the feeling that I'm cheating.

Al

[nies]

What is a asym?

[Duckie]

It is something  between a genoa and a spinnaker. 

Al

[brackish]

What is a asym?

asymmetrical spinnaker.  It differs from a traditional spinnaker in that it is used without a pole, making it much easier to deploy, douse and jibe.

[deisher6]

A spinnaker is symmetrical about a vertical line drawn from the peak perpendicular to the foot.  When it is jibed the tack and clew corners change. I have never used one but you must use a pole usually with a topping lift and a fore guy??? to control the pole to keep it more or less horizontal. You always jibe with a spinnaker.  The asymmetrical jib or spinnaker has a definite peak, tack and clew.  The luff is not attached to the fore stay like a jib.  However, it must be tacked like a jib.  The leach is longer than the luff, making it asymmetrical to any vertical line drawn from the peak towards the foot.

regards charlie

[tmw]

A spinnaker is symmetrical about a vertical line drawn from the peak perpendicular to the foot.  When it is jibed the tack and clew corners change. I have never used one but you must use a pole usually with a topping lift and a fore guy??? to control the pole to keep it more or less horizontal. You always jibe with a spinnaker.  The asymmetrical jib or spinnaker has a definite peak, tack and clew.  The luff is not attached to the fore stay like a jib.  However, it must be tacked like a jib.  The leach is longer than the luff, making it asymmetrical to any vertical line drawn from the peak towards the foot.

That sounded like Charlie Brown's parents talking... Mwa wah wah wah mwah wah wah.  I definitely respect you sailors who know what you are doing.

[Jasmid53]

Really enjoying the discussion I started. As a newbie I had to go and research more than half of the suggestions from you guys. I have trouble remembering the parts of the sail. Head and foot, port and starboard are some of the jargon I understand. Until I think about them, then I'm a bit dubious.

A week ago, I was talking to my doctor about sailing and he was turned off by all the technical fiddling that needs to be known. He said he simply doesn't have the time for it. I know you can still go sailing knowing just the basics, but as I learn more and sail more that little wrinkle in the sail becomes annoying. Do I now need a boom vang? What about a Cunningham? And what are these lines on the edge of the sail with jamb cleats for?

I know as time goes by I will be able to use the jargon and understand better how to set my sails. And all will come second nature. I'm not the kind of person that likes talking and studying the latest technical aspects of some product. I don't care about cars except every twelve years when I need a new one. When I skied I hated when nearly every guy on the lift wanted to talk about the next best thing to get you down a hill.

I plan to keep the 16 for only one more year. I have already spent more on her than I will likely get back. In the mean time I bought a 19. I will likely change it over to a junk rig. I've been reading and watching videos on that rig and I think it will suit my personality better. To paraphrase Anne Hill who said I'm not a very good sailor, I just want to go sailing. And that sounds a lot like me.

[deisher6]

When Dave, my buddy, and I learned to sail on a Windmill (#150) in southern Ohio.  My father would drive us to the local lake (Huston Woods), drop us off with the boat and we sailed. We did not let inexperience stand in our way. It was a challenge.

Nothing that we had read at that point addressed why there are two sheets on the Jib, or how to rig them Dave and I always just threw both of them around the mast when we tacked.  Dave being the wiser finally suggested that we should run one on each side of the mast. 

Thinking about it we did a bunch of paddling upwind till we learned about tacking.

Other lessons and observations have followed.

You are correct, you do not have to know  a bunch of technical stuff to sail and have fun.

Smooth Sailing

regards charlie

[carry-on]

Duckie,
Your second forestay is interesting, but not clear to me. Are both stays attached to the same hound?
Does the Jib bag on deck cause a problem when tacking the genoa?

[Duckie]

No, the second stay attaches below the genoa hound.  It uses the original halyard for the hanked on jib.  There is a plate on the bow sprit for the foot of the stay which is behind the standard attachment point for the furler.  I can't say exactly, but I think that the second stay is the original stay while the furling genoa is after market.  The hound for the genny  was probably custom set for the new sail. 

I have seen some set ups where an extra sail is kept in a bag on the deck at the foot of the forestay to facilitate changing out the sails.  In my case the whole stay and sail would be ready to deploy, but have to be behind the mast and secure to allow tacking.  To deploy the new sail I would simply have to attach the second forestay and the jib sheets, then haul away on the halyard. So far, I haven't used it that way because I make all my decisions at the dock as to how I am going to rig for that particular day.  I am a total single hander, so the less time I spend away from the tiller and sheets, the better. 

Also, my furler does not act as a reef.  The sail is either all out or all the way furled.  I don't like my furler because I have good reason to mistrust it.  Rather than deal with it, I prefer to start out with the smaller head sail if I think the wind is going to pipe up later.  I have a downhaul on the jib so that if I need to, I can bring it down to the deck in a matter of a few seconds.  I am also not a racer, so I don't care about ultimate speed and performance.  I want good performance, and great safety.  This set up gives me that.

Al