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#51
Sun Cats and Sunday Cats / Re: Is a Torqeedo 1003 L Adequ...
Last post by bruce - May 26, 2025, 07:27:28 AMBeen a while since there's been a discussion on electric motors for a Sun Cat. Lots of threads from a few years ago. Search "electric motors" on this board.
My take is yes, several Sun Cat owners have been happy with The Torpedo 1003 and ePropulsion equivalent. Of course it all depends on the range you need, and any strong currents to contend with. Up to a couple of miles to get to your sailing grounds should be easily doable. It's all about battery consumption, determine what power setting is most efficient for you, typically 60-70%, +/-.
My take is yes, several Sun Cat owners have been happy with The Torpedo 1003 and ePropulsion equivalent. Of course it all depends on the range you need, and any strong currents to contend with. Up to a couple of miles to get to your sailing grounds should be easily doable. It's all about battery consumption, determine what power setting is most efficient for you, typically 60-70%, +/-.
#52
Picnic Cats / Re: Basic PC questions
Last post by Cpy23ecl - May 26, 2025, 07:22:39 AMThis is an interesting and timely thread as I too am seriously contemplating going to a picnic cat after I sell my Eclipse. I first owned a 23 and then decided I wanted something that was easier to trailer sail so ordered a new Eclipse. I found that I've not trailer sailed as expected and the first mate doesn't like the lack of side decks to get to the bow.
Last fall we bought a c-dory 16 power boat but I still want to sail so am now planning to take a close look at the picnic cat.
Last fall we bought a c-dory 16 power boat but I still want to sail so am now planning to take a close look at the picnic cat.
#53
Picnic Cats / Re: Basic PC questions
Last post by bruce - May 26, 2025, 06:32:59 AMDon't stress about the gaff rig, you'll quickly learn how to deal with it. I like Bill Welch's book, The Competitive Catboat. Some on racing, mostly just how to sail a catboat well. The book is based on his Marshall Sandpiper 15.
https://www.billwelchmd.net/the-competitive-cat.html
I've made several modifications to mine, but that's me. The stock boat is fine, many don't feel the need to change. The Mastendr system is great, simple and does the job. Not as well-engineered as the Marshall hinge, but the Marshall pin-in-socket hinge fits so tightly it can be difficult to open at times. You have to lift the mast to free the pin to allow the mast to fold down. Geoff Marshall advised against doing that routinely after every sail, rather seasonally with the boat on a slip, when we test sailed a Sandpiper with him.
Many small catboats lack good benches and you're sitting directly or only slightly above the cockpit sole. The PC has comfortable benches and great storage, typically very dry. The boom is set high, clearing most noggins. This does come at the loss of some sail area. Half a reef always set. The PC could easily handle 150 sq. ft., I line with competitors, but does fine with the 109 sq. ft. it has. Below 5 pts of wind it's slow going, but the boat does ghost around pretty well. My wife never did adventure, so we'd stay home if winds were expected much above 18 kts. Predictions sometimes don't work out of course. I've never felt unsafe in our boat, being most cautious on a run with a strong breeze and some surfing potential. A boom vang is helpful in those situations, and it keeps the boom from bouncing when sailing into a chop and depowering when you want the rig to push through.
Since you've got some leads locally I'd pay them a visit right away. Even if you can't arrange for a test sail, you should be able to raise the mast and see how manageable that is, and check out the layout of the cockpit to see if it works for you. With your experience, you'll be able to get a sense of how it will feel and handle underway.
Good luck!
https://www.billwelchmd.net/the-competitive-cat.html
I've made several modifications to mine, but that's me. The stock boat is fine, many don't feel the need to change. The Mastendr system is great, simple and does the job. Not as well-engineered as the Marshall hinge, but the Marshall pin-in-socket hinge fits so tightly it can be difficult to open at times. You have to lift the mast to free the pin to allow the mast to fold down. Geoff Marshall advised against doing that routinely after every sail, rather seasonally with the boat on a slip, when we test sailed a Sandpiper with him.
Many small catboats lack good benches and you're sitting directly or only slightly above the cockpit sole. The PC has comfortable benches and great storage, typically very dry. The boom is set high, clearing most noggins. This does come at the loss of some sail area. Half a reef always set. The PC could easily handle 150 sq. ft., I line with competitors, but does fine with the 109 sq. ft. it has. Below 5 pts of wind it's slow going, but the boat does ghost around pretty well. My wife never did adventure, so we'd stay home if winds were expected much above 18 kts. Predictions sometimes don't work out of course. I've never felt unsafe in our boat, being most cautious on a run with a strong breeze and some surfing potential. A boom vang is helpful in those situations, and it keeps the boom from bouncing when sailing into a chop and depowering when you want the rig to push through.
Since you've got some leads locally I'd pay them a visit right away. Even if you can't arrange for a test sail, you should be able to raise the mast and see how manageable that is, and check out the layout of the cockpit to see if it works for you. With your experience, you'll be able to get a sense of how it will feel and handle underway.
Good luck!
#54
Picnic Cats / Re: Basic PC questions
Last post by passagesfromtheheart - May 26, 2025, 12:49:02 AMHi, Bruce ~
Thank you so much for your reply and all of the fantastic information -- it's so appreciated!
Ha ha, yes, you're so right -- I guess you could say that I have, indeed, owned a lot of different Com-Pac models! :-D Well, technically actually only three -- the Legacy, 23, and the 25.
In my defense, I do so LOVE Com-Pacs and had aspirations -- and blessings from Gerry Hutchins, himself -- to become a Com-Pac dealer, but the chain of events the past year for me, personally, and, of course, with respect to Com-Pac have made that dream unattainable, very sadly.
In my defense again, I'll also say that I've sure "learned by doing" quite a bit with respect to the Legacy, 23, and 25. But, in addition to that, I've, unfortunately, had health issues that've come up within recent years which have caused me to rethink how sailing can still be a part of my life.
One said 'thing' is that I've learned is that with respect to sailing, things need to be more manageable independent of outside help -- we live in, pretty much, what I'd call a 'dead zone' where sailing is concerned. Not much of a sailing community in these parts, and no professional help either. That's one reason why we decided to try the 25 -- to be near a maritime area (Lake Superior) with more of a sailing community and access to professional services for the many things that exceed our scope of knowledge and skillsets.
Anyhow, to make a very long story shorter, the Com-Pac models which offer the hinged mast - MasTender system appeal to me, especially. A smaller boat now also appeals to me/us, more so, now as well. There are many other factors I could mention, but I won't bore you with the details.
In recent weeks, I've seen a couple of very nice PCs come up for sale - I've sort of been keeping an eye out for something I could sail on the closer-by inland lakes, independent of the First Mate's help. A smaller boat like the PC fits that bill and hence my interest. If I were younger and healthier, I'd go for a Laser - my dream boat when I was a spry young teenager!
Also, cat boats have been on my radar the past five years. I initially was looking at Sunday Cats and Sun Cats in late 2020 and ultimately due to price, mostly, and my worry about never having sailed a gaff-rigged sailboat before, I decided to go with the Legacy. Which is a fabulous boat, too, but I admit there is a romantic sort of quality that cat boats exude which intrigues me considerably. I talked to the owners at Marshall and Areys Pond some years ago -- great folks and they helped me with the various questions I had about cat boats. There are also some excellent cat boat websites I peruse to tickle the fancy every now and then. I almost bought a Sanderling a few years ago and decided, ultimately, against it because I was freaked out about the ballast situation -- the 'not fixed' ballast as I learned from the owner at Marshall.
The above all said, over the last several years of having sailing in my life again, I've learned independence is what's most important. With the 23 and 25, I cannot attain the level of independence I/we seek. Relying on others for help at/from our marinas has shown us that there may be a better way to enjoy sailing more so -- with boats which are better suited for maintaining indpendently to the extent that we can; without relying on others to help step masts, work on diesel engines, etc.
I am currently selling my 23 and the 25 will likely soon be for sale as well. The Legacy is, of course, manageable for us and a keeper, though I admit I'm unable to step her mast on my own. I am grateful for the experiences all of these boats have given to me -- to us. They are -- like other Com-Pac boats -- incredible boats, for sure!
Thank you so much for your reply and all of the fantastic information -- it's so appreciated!
Ha ha, yes, you're so right -- I guess you could say that I have, indeed, owned a lot of different Com-Pac models! :-D Well, technically actually only three -- the Legacy, 23, and the 25.
In my defense, I do so LOVE Com-Pacs and had aspirations -- and blessings from Gerry Hutchins, himself -- to become a Com-Pac dealer, but the chain of events the past year for me, personally, and, of course, with respect to Com-Pac have made that dream unattainable, very sadly.
In my defense again, I'll also say that I've sure "learned by doing" quite a bit with respect to the Legacy, 23, and 25. But, in addition to that, I've, unfortunately, had health issues that've come up within recent years which have caused me to rethink how sailing can still be a part of my life.
One said 'thing' is that I've learned is that with respect to sailing, things need to be more manageable independent of outside help -- we live in, pretty much, what I'd call a 'dead zone' where sailing is concerned. Not much of a sailing community in these parts, and no professional help either. That's one reason why we decided to try the 25 -- to be near a maritime area (Lake Superior) with more of a sailing community and access to professional services for the many things that exceed our scope of knowledge and skillsets.
Anyhow, to make a very long story shorter, the Com-Pac models which offer the hinged mast - MasTender system appeal to me, especially. A smaller boat now also appeals to me/us, more so, now as well. There are many other factors I could mention, but I won't bore you with the details.
In recent weeks, I've seen a couple of very nice PCs come up for sale - I've sort of been keeping an eye out for something I could sail on the closer-by inland lakes, independent of the First Mate's help. A smaller boat like the PC fits that bill and hence my interest. If I were younger and healthier, I'd go for a Laser - my dream boat when I was a spry young teenager!
Also, cat boats have been on my radar the past five years. I initially was looking at Sunday Cats and Sun Cats in late 2020 and ultimately due to price, mostly, and my worry about never having sailed a gaff-rigged sailboat before, I decided to go with the Legacy. Which is a fabulous boat, too, but I admit there is a romantic sort of quality that cat boats exude which intrigues me considerably. I talked to the owners at Marshall and Areys Pond some years ago -- great folks and they helped me with the various questions I had about cat boats. There are also some excellent cat boat websites I peruse to tickle the fancy every now and then. I almost bought a Sanderling a few years ago and decided, ultimately, against it because I was freaked out about the ballast situation -- the 'not fixed' ballast as I learned from the owner at Marshall.
The above all said, over the last several years of having sailing in my life again, I've learned independence is what's most important. With the 23 and 25, I cannot attain the level of independence I/we seek. Relying on others for help at/from our marinas has shown us that there may be a better way to enjoy sailing more so -- with boats which are better suited for maintaining indpendently to the extent that we can; without relying on others to help step masts, work on diesel engines, etc.
I am currently selling my 23 and the 25 will likely soon be for sale as well. The Legacy is, of course, manageable for us and a keeper, though I admit I'm unable to step her mast on my own. I am grateful for the experiences all of these boats have given to me -- to us. They are -- like other Com-Pac boats -- incredible boats, for sure!
#55
Picnic Cats / Re: Basic PC questions
Last post by bruce - May 25, 2025, 09:28:03 PMWhen I saw this post my first thought was are you trying to have owned every Com-Pac boat? More power to you if you are!
We've owned our PC since 2010. We went to the Annapolis Boat Show that year with a list of about 30 boats to check out. Decided a catboat was a good fit for us, and after comparing it with, and test sailing, the other two catboats in production around the same size, the Marshall 15 and Menger 15, decided on the PC. We planned on berthing the boat routinely in our garage, and it had to be easily trailered. We might have gone with a Sunday Cat, or SC Daysailer if they'd have fit, but the PC has been great.
To answer your questions, any unbalasted small centerboard boat can capsize. I own the Picnic Cat Group dislist on groups.io and have attached a pdf of three known events. Patrick Holman is a well-known videographer in Bonaire, specializing in stories about local boatbuilders. He knows boats in general. He replaced his PC with a 21-foot Saffier 6.5, a fixed keel boat better suited to his waters. He converted the PC to a motor launch for his wife to use with friends. I know him well enough to say he clearly didn't doubt the sea worthiness of the PC.
The second story was about Dick Herman. He went on to sail his SC, Muddy Duck, for years. The third sailor I didn't know of, and since have learned he likely was the least experienced. I've heard of a couple of other capsizes, both preventable operator error.
Recovery of any catboat will be difficult. The broad beam provides stability, but once it goes over it will be difficult to flip back up. The wide hull will catch the wind resisting recovery. The PC has generous freeboard, making it a dry boat, but again more windage. The CB weighs about 70 lbs. and once inverted and it falls back in the hull can be difficult to pull out. I've attached a lanyard on mine, that trails under the boat, but it's still a heavy lift.
There was a thread on the PCG distlist about mounting a mast float to aid in recovery. The consensus was, amongst more experienced sailors, that it likely wouldn't make the difference in conditions likely to cause the capsize, i.e. heavy winds and seas.
There is minimal floatation installed on the stock PC. I, and many others, use Optimist floatation bags. The layout is described on p. 82 of Ed Seinfeld's Catboat Sailing manual. I think this link will work. Lots of good PC info in Ed's manual.
https://groups.io/g/PicnicCat/files/Catboat%20Guide%20and%20Sailing%20Manual/Sailing%20manual%20150523.pdf
Launch and recovery couldn't be easier. Com-Pac really focused on this, especially in their catboats. It won't take more than 5-10 minutes, unless the onlookers distract you too much with questions and admiration. The gaff rig means a short mast that doesn't extend much beyond the transom when folded down. No need to step the mast. The sail stays rigged. We'd watched plenty of sailboats at the ramp before purchasing the PC, and didn't want to deal with that.
I'll conclude with something my sailor friend passed on. He's owned several boats, including a PC, and found that a small boat was so sensitive to crew weight distribution that it was often more difficult to single hand than his Catalina 27. Go forward to the mast and the trim is seriously effected.
We've owned our PC since 2010. We went to the Annapolis Boat Show that year with a list of about 30 boats to check out. Decided a catboat was a good fit for us, and after comparing it with, and test sailing, the other two catboats in production around the same size, the Marshall 15 and Menger 15, decided on the PC. We planned on berthing the boat routinely in our garage, and it had to be easily trailered. We might have gone with a Sunday Cat, or SC Daysailer if they'd have fit, but the PC has been great.
To answer your questions, any unbalasted small centerboard boat can capsize. I own the Picnic Cat Group dislist on groups.io and have attached a pdf of three known events. Patrick Holman is a well-known videographer in Bonaire, specializing in stories about local boatbuilders. He knows boats in general. He replaced his PC with a 21-foot Saffier 6.5, a fixed keel boat better suited to his waters. He converted the PC to a motor launch for his wife to use with friends. I know him well enough to say he clearly didn't doubt the sea worthiness of the PC.
The second story was about Dick Herman. He went on to sail his SC, Muddy Duck, for years. The third sailor I didn't know of, and since have learned he likely was the least experienced. I've heard of a couple of other capsizes, both preventable operator error.
Recovery of any catboat will be difficult. The broad beam provides stability, but once it goes over it will be difficult to flip back up. The wide hull will catch the wind resisting recovery. The PC has generous freeboard, making it a dry boat, but again more windage. The CB weighs about 70 lbs. and once inverted and it falls back in the hull can be difficult to pull out. I've attached a lanyard on mine, that trails under the boat, but it's still a heavy lift.
There was a thread on the PCG distlist about mounting a mast float to aid in recovery. The consensus was, amongst more experienced sailors, that it likely wouldn't make the difference in conditions likely to cause the capsize, i.e. heavy winds and seas.
There is minimal floatation installed on the stock PC. I, and many others, use Optimist floatation bags. The layout is described on p. 82 of Ed Seinfeld's Catboat Sailing manual. I think this link will work. Lots of good PC info in Ed's manual.
https://groups.io/g/PicnicCat/files/Catboat%20Guide%20and%20Sailing%20Manual/Sailing%20manual%20150523.pdf
Launch and recovery couldn't be easier. Com-Pac really focused on this, especially in their catboats. It won't take more than 5-10 minutes, unless the onlookers distract you too much with questions and admiration. The gaff rig means a short mast that doesn't extend much beyond the transom when folded down. No need to step the mast. The sail stays rigged. We'd watched plenty of sailboats at the ramp before purchasing the PC, and didn't want to deal with that.
I'll conclude with something my sailor friend passed on. He's owned several boats, including a PC, and found that a small boat was so sensitive to crew weight distribution that it was often more difficult to single hand than his Catalina 27. Go forward to the mast and the trim is seriously effected.
#56
Sun Cats and Sunday Cats / Is a Torqeedo 1003 L Adequate ...
Last post by isleofbones - May 25, 2025, 04:43:31 PMIs a Torqeedo 1003 L adequate for a Com-Pac Sun Cat? I am considering an electric outboard for a Com-Pac Sun Cat. The Torqeedo 1003 Long Shaft model is supposedly adequate for the boat, according to an AI inquiry and the manufacturer. An AI inquiry generated the following response: "Yes, a Torqeedo Travel 1003 L is generally considered adequate for a Com-Pac Sun Cat sailboat. The 1003 L offers a power equivalent to a 3 HP gasoline outboard and is suitable for sailboats up to 1.5 tons." I know that generally a 3hp to 6hp gasoline outboard is recommended for the boat. I have seen a YouTube video of a person pushing their Horizon Cat out of the marina with this motor. I am curious what the concensus from Sun Cat owners is. Thanks in advance.
#57
Picnic Cats / Basic PC questions
Last post by passagesfromtheheart - May 25, 2025, 03:46:41 PMHi, I've been considering a Picnic Cat as a choice option for solo sailing. Firstly, I am an experienced sailor on inland lakes and consider myself to be in fairly "good shape" for my age (pushing 60), however, I'm no spring chicken. In other words, I'm not looking for "athletic sailing" adventures (e.g., Sunfish, Lasers, etc.). I've seen some videos of folks sailing their PCs and things look fairly tame onboard, even in some sporty conditions out on the water. I'd consider myself a conservative sailor, I always reef early, and I'm diligent about checking weather, several times, prior to setting out on the water as well as while out on the water. That said, I live in an area where "pop-up storms" are a frequent occurrence, and those, therefore, are not always/consistently predictable/foreseen. My question is, what is the likelihood of a capsize in these vessels? Has anyone heard of this happening and if so, how easy is it to right the boat? I do not believe there is positive flotation in these boats, if memory serves? Also, with respect to launching and retrieving on the trailer as a solo sailor, I'm assuming this typically goes fairly smoothly for a smaller-sized boat? I would be sailing on inland lakes with the boat.
Thank you for your feedback!
Thank you for your feedback!
#58
Sun Cats and Sunday Cats / Re: Rudder depth
Last post by Niantic Mike - May 24, 2025, 08:43:57 PMGood talk, thanks!
#59
Sun Cats and Sunday Cats / Re: Rudder depth
Last post by bruce - May 24, 2025, 07:04:43 PMNo, but no rudder is very effective at low speeds. The flow over the rudder is critical.
I'm all for experimentation. If you do want to try a shorter rudder, I'd encourage you to use new stock, aluminum or otherwise, and keep the stock rudder for comparison or restoring the original configuration if it doesn't work out. I've had good luck on eBay for King Starboard and aluminum in sizes I've needed at less than normal retail.
I'm all for experimentation. If you do want to try a shorter rudder, I'd encourage you to use new stock, aluminum or otherwise, and keep the stock rudder for comparison or restoring the original configuration if it doesn't work out. I've had good luck on eBay for King Starboard and aluminum in sizes I've needed at less than normal retail.
#60
Sun Cats and Sunday Cats / Re: Rudder depth
Last post by Niantic Mike - May 24, 2025, 06:14:53 PMAh you mean like having the rudder halfway up, so it's extended outward rather than down. I have tried that, it is ok but not very reactive at slow docking speeds