Can anyone out there please share thoughts, or feedback on LEHR outboards?? Considering the 2.5 HP for the inflatable to avoided carrying a 2nd gasoline fuel tank.
I looked closely at Lehr at the Annapolis boat show a couple of years ago. I was pretty pumped about losing the gas tank and all the hassles with ethanol, clogged carbs etc. But I found the Lehr much noisier than expected - actually noisier than a conventional 4 cycle outboard. Bummer!
Back to wrestling with whether the Torqeedo electric would have enough muscle to get me out of a tight spot. I love everything else about it (except the price).
Wes
Blown Away,
Making these kinds of decisions is such a pain in the butt for sailors, especially for we that sail small boats where space and weight are principle concerns. As far as a dingy motor, I use a Honda 2.0, which I believe in the current iteration is 2.5 hp. It uses so little fuel that I carry a 1 gallon plastic tank for it. It weighs in at around 27 pounds which makes handling on and off the dingy easy. It is simple mechanically, requiring minimal maintenance, and parts are readily available if needed. IMO there is nothing wrong with propane as a motor fuel. However, almost all marinas have gas, but not necessarily propane tanks. If you plan to use the remote tank, you'll find it even more challenging to locate a source for a refill. Not knowing anything about the manufacturer of this motor would give me pause.
My opinion, in having given this option a fleeting consideration is that there are other choices which are of time proven reliability and availability.
One of the sailors at a regatta cruise I attended a few years back had a standard outboard that had been converted to propane. By the way, I think you can do that for a lot less than the cost of a Lehr. His conversion was very reliable, instant starting and devoid of the problems of a small gasoline motor. However he had a cockpit full of propane bottles, neither safe, nor efficient.
If your primary problem is the space/inconvenience of carrying spare gasoline, you might look into the numbers for volume required for a BTU of gasoline vs propane. Gasoline wins the space required game by a bunch.
I've considered the Lehr outboard. My main reason is the size, weight and ease of refueling. I have a Honda 2hp which works quite well but has only a small fuel tank and no provision for an external tank. For most days it's perfect.
I would like to do some multi-day cruises though and in my local area the wind just isn't always reliable. I need the ability to use the engine and not worry about spilling fuel while refilling the tank. The noise issue I think I could remedy at least partially. I plan to mount the external fuel tank so it would "drain" overboard if leaking though leaks should not be a problem with a little precaution. Propane would answer all my problems. I just haven't taken the plunge yet.
There are two uses for an outboard that have arisen in this conversation. The discussion began with power for a dinghy but has evolved to include outboards as the primary propulsion. There is a clear distinction between the two on the topic of fuel, as the dinghy outboard will be used for much shorter periods between refueling. My little Honda 2.0 will run about an hour on one tank of fuel, which would be a pain if used for longer cruising periods. A remote tank is a very nice option to have for a cruising outboard, but of course, that requires a fuel pump which adds cost, weight and another point of failure. I don't find the noise such a problem when getting around in the dinghy (not as objectionable as rowing), but for several hours in a calm sea, noise becomes an intrusion.
An easy and less messy way to refuel a small outboard is to use something like a small squeeze bottle filled from the main container. It's easier to fill a small bottle than to lean over the side holding a large container of gasoline, and greatly reduces the chance of a spill. The fish will love you for it. Carrying a small bottle would double your dinghy range and not take up much space at all. I don't remember the capacity of the fuel tank on the Honda 2.0 but it shouldn't be a problem figuring out what size squeeze bottle would do. With a little engineering, I think it possible to refill the squeeze bottle from your main tank, so now the only extra gear is a small squeeze bottle. I'd consider this a winning combination for us small boat sailors.
May I reiterate the advantages of my little Honda 2.0 for my dinghy:
1. Light weight at 27 pounds make it easy to lift onto my rail mounted motor mount
2 Air cooled means no water pump impellor to go bad and no need to flush with fresh water
3 Centrifugal clutch means fewer lower unit gears to become a problem and disengages at idle speed
4. Readily available parts if needed - I purchased mine used as a 20" shaft and it cost about $100.00 for a 15" drive shaft and seals. I still have the 20" shaft and extender should I ever find a need to convert it back.
In my opinion, it's hard to find a better solution for use on a small cruising boat, and it's always ready for service without a lot of to-do.
Hi Ron et al.
Good friend who owned a Tohatsu dealership took on the LEHR outboards because they GAVE them to his to try to sell. He sold a few, but after a year he had them come take them back. He said they were well engineered but poorly made. Parts that should not have broken and were hard to replace broke off and couldn't be replaced without replacing entire cowlings or larger parts. etc.
On the subject of Honda 2's. They are great little engines, but you DO have to run them in fresh water after salt water use. The exhaust system sucks salt water up into it when run, and it should be rinsed out with fresh water. You are correct that they have no pump or impeller to replace though. When you run them in a bucket you will see the water going into the lower leg and being spit out after the engine warms up. Plus ... it says to do it in the manual.
I'm one of the strange people that reads manuals. Owned the Honda 2 for several years with my SeaPearl Whisper.
Ron
The feedback is great and I should have given a bit more detail. We enjoy spending weekends anchored out a few miles from our marina. The spot we love most is about a quarter of a mile from the boardwalk and all the action, restaurants, pubs, etc. I'm not lazy except on weekends when I become extremely lazy. My point is that we leave the boat anchored and use the dinghy to get to and from the boardwalk so my trips are short but sometimes frequent especially if the music is good and the beer is cold. I have a 2hp Suzuki with the built in fuel tank but still have to carry a small 1gal tank to top off with that drives me crazy to have on deck or in the cockpit at my feet not to mention the possibility, aggregation, and smell of spillage. Considering all mentioned the use of propane especially in 1lb cylinders makes sense. So let me rephrase my question... What do you know about LEHR (the good the bad and the ugly)?
Thanks Ron great info!!!
Quote from: hoddinr on December 12, 2016, 08:40:15 PM
Hi Ron et al.
Good friend who owned a Tohatsu dealership took on the LEHR outboards because they GAVE them to his to try to sell. He sold a few, but after a year he had them come take them back. He said they were well engineered but poorly made. Parts that should not have broken and were hard to replace broke off and couldn't be replaced without replacing entire cowlings or larger parts. etc.
On the subject of Honda 2's. They are great little engines, but you DO have to run them in fresh water after salt water use. The exhaust system sucks salt water up into it when run, and it should be rinsed out with fresh water. You are correct that they have no pump or impeller to replace though. When you run them in a bucket you will see the water going into the lower leg and being spit out after the engine warms up. Plus ... it says to do it in the manual.
I'm one of the strange people that reads manuals. Owned the Honda 2 for several years with my SeaPearl Whisper.
Ron
Ron,
Thanks for the Honda 2.0 info, I didn't know. The PO didn't provide a manual (I'm in the strange club) and I never noticed the water flow you mentioned. Well, you just burst my maintenance free bubble, I guess I'll have to locate the trusty bucket and rinse it next time.
Have you sailed with the West Coast Trailer Sailors? Your Sea Pearl Whisper has a place in my dim memory.
Blown Away,
Why don't you leave the gas can in the dinghy?
Sounds like you are set on getting a Lehr, so please provide the rest of us with your experience.
I store propane tanks for my stove in the area that you would use for your main gas tank as it is available thanks to the diesel fuel tank being below deck. I had the problem of corrosion on the threads so I found a couple of plastic pitchers at Wal-Mart that were very close to the same diameter and just the right height to fit the propane bottles. With the lid on they are pretty much air tight and have solved the problem of the rust.
Quote from: Potcake boy on December 12, 2016, 11:27:37 PM
Ron,
Thanks for the Honda 2.0 info, I didn't know. The PO didn't provide a manual (I'm in the strange club) and I never noticed the water flow you mentioned. Well, you just burst my maintenance free bubble, I guess I'll have to locate the trusty bucket and rinse it next time.
Have you sailed with the West Coast Trailer Sailors? Your Sea Pearl Whisper has a place in my dim memory.
Blown Away,
Why don't you leave the gas can in the dinghy?
Sounds like you are set on getting a Lehr, so please provide the rest of us with your experience.
I store propane tanks for my stove in the area that you would use for your main gas tank as it is available thanks to the diesel fuel tank being below deck. I had the problem of corrosion on the threads so I found a couple of plastic pitchers at Wal-Mart that were very close to the same diameter and just the right height to fit the propane bottles. With the lid on they are pretty much air tight and have solved the problem of the rust.
Potcake boy,
My experience and or knowledge of propane fired outboards is quite vague to say the least. I do know that the forklifts in the warehouse that run on propane have served us well with little to no problems. I will say for reasons previously mentioned that the propane option (for me not everyone) is very attractive. With LEHR as the only option out there outside of a DYI retrofit it has naturally taken center stage in this discussion. I'm definitely not set on buying a LEHR but will say that I am certainly leaning toward a propane option for this particular application.
Blown Away,
Looking at the picture of your boat, it appears to be a 16. If that is the case, you also have the option of using the same motor for your boat and dinghy. What a winning solution that would be.
Also, I perceived the water in your picture to be of southern latitude quality. Where do you sail?
Yes, Ron.
I'm still the Founder of the West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron.
Former boat - SeaPearl Whisper -
Current boat - SunCat - Nomad.
Ron
Why not look at the Torqeedo. I use one on my Com-Pac Horizon Day Cat and it is great. It would work fantastic on a dingy. Very light weight and very reliable. If you need any more info on them let me know. I was originally going to get a Lehr, and decided against it due to quality issues.
Rob
Quote from: rbh1515 on December 13, 2016, 08:20:12 PM
Why not look at the Torqeedo. I use one on my Com-Pac Horizon Day Cat and it is great. It would work fantastic on a dingy. Very light weight and very reliable. If you need any more info on them let me know. I was originally going to get a Lehr, and decided against it due to quality issues.
Rob
Thanks Rob, I know nothing about the Torqeedo and would surely appreciate any info that you can share.
Quote from: Potcake boy on December 13, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Blown Away,
Looking at the picture of your boat, it appears to be a 16. If that is the case, you also have the option of using the same motor for your boat and dinghy. What a winning solution that would be.
Also, I perceived the water in your picture to be of southern latitude quality. Where do you sail?
Yes that's my little 16 in the picture, a great little boat to explore with! I also own a fully restored Pearson Vanguard 32 that I keep closer to home in South Louisiana, and I just purchased a CP23 that I'm picking up this Thursday to keep in the Destin / Fort Walton area. To answer your question I mostly sail between New Orleans and the Florida panhandle and drag the 16 to other areas of interest.
The LEHR is somewhat appealing due to not having to fool with the maintenance of gas and potential for a clogged gummed up carb etc. However, from reading reviews and feedback on LEHRs it sounds like they have quality and reliability issues. If NISSAN or Honda were to come out with a propane-outboard then I would definitely be interested. It would likely be much more reliable. Who is LEHR anyway????
Quote from: Bilge Rat on December 14, 2016, 02:26:38 PM
The LEHR is somewhat appealing due to not having to fool with the maintenance of gas and potential for a clogged gummed up carb etc. However, from reading reviews and feedback on LEHRs it sounds like they have quality and reliability issues. If NISSAN or Honda were to come out with a propane-outboard then I would definitely be interested. It would likely be much more reliable. Who is LEHR anyway????
Thanks Bilge Rat, how awesome that would be if NISSAN or Honda offered a propane option!
I would be surprised if other major players like Nissan don't already build such motors. Many years ago as a young airman I spent a couple of years in Japan and I did note that many of their vehicles especially cabs were operated by propane. Japanese companies differ from American companies in that they produce products that are designed to serve a purpose more than a marketing goal. I recall going to Tokyo and you could find anything you could imagine you'd need. But in the U.S. every store seems to have the same products. Likely for many of the same reasons we don't get a lot of items that the rest of the world enjoys. The marketing strategy here is to present a product that is suitable for the producer and use marketing to convince consumers that it's just what we need.
But there is hope for you propane fans, check out this youtube vid for the simplicity of converting your present motor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp7GUyKkWKc and another: https://tammynorie.wordpress.com/2015/05/24/propane-outboard-hack/
Quote from: Blown Away on December 13, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
Thanks Rob, I know nothing about the Torqeedo and would surely appreciate any info that you can share.
Torqeedos are IMO the best electric outboards out there. I have had 2 excellent seasons with mine. I have the 1003. Its equivalent to 3 or 3.5 hp or so. The motor weighs 20# and the battery which fits on top weighs 10#. I leave my motor locked to the mount on the transom and bring the battery home to charge it. One thing I like a lot is the remote throttle. You can remove the tiller throttle and attach a remote throttle, and there is no reaching back.
What are the negatives:
Price: $1999....but I got mine on sale at Defender for 20% off.
Range: not good if you are cruising. I think it is great for daysailing. If you need to motor a longs ways, that may be a problem. For me, going in and out of slip to the harbor, I always come back with about 70% power.
Power: I can get my 2500# Horizon Day cat going about 4 knots at full throttle, but your range drops dramatically at full throttle...about 30 minutes. It you go half throttle at about 3 knots I think I have almost 2 hours or so. They do have a new battery out that will go 1 hour full throttle.
I think the Torqeedo would be great on a small dingy. In fact a lot of dingy manufacturers recommend it such as the Portland Pudgy.
Its a great little motor. Almost zero maintenance. No oil change. Minimal noise. No ethanol gas!
Rob
Regarding the Torqeedo I wonder if that is the right application in this case. Anchored out for days at a time with frequent trips to shore. Do you have the ability to recharge it while anchored? Are you comfortable leaving a fairly expensive, very light easily carried outboard on an inflatable in what sounds like a high traffic area?
Shawn
Lehr and Torqeedo are both awesome ideas, both suffering price point problems and supply chain/service issues. I get lots of inquiries, not so much in sales.
For the discussions ranging in 2~2.5HP, I'd certainly have to give quite a bit of thought to a good old fashioned trolling motor. You'll give up some speed, but have longevity. And if you bite down hard enough for a Lithium battery, weight of "fuel" is no longer an issue. And if this is for the 16, 19, 23 ComPac-er ... well the trolling motor battery bank could be easily "convertable" for both shipboard power and propulsion power (recognizing that trolling motor may take you up to 24 or 36V; but I can still get you that battery bank under 45#)
I decided on the Torqeedo because it was not easy to switch the propane tanks while underway with the Lehr. I have spare battery for the Torqeedo 1003 and switching is very quick and easy. I always attach a line the the battery handle just in case, when I switch batteries on my CP 19. The I phone app is great showing range left on charge at current speed. Allows for you to choose convenient time to change battery.
I recommend visiting your local West Marine and try changing tanks on the Lehr, it was an eye opener for me.
I guess in summary folks I would say there is no perfect outboard for all situations (yet). As a Torqeedo and gas outboard owner myself I can easily cite drawbacks of each. While I do not have a Lehr, I have read enough online to believe they have quality and reliability issues.
A friend and I had taken my SunCat for a trip down the shore of Charlotte Harbor to Burnt Store to have lunch. Everything was well until just after our return began the motor quit. Turned out to be the fuel hose at the motor fitting and I no tools with me - shame on me. We only had a couple hundred yards to clear the channel out of the marina and of course the wind was blowing straight in. The little Yamaha 4 has a built in tank so we switched over and voila we were under way, almost. Near the end of the channel, it quite again(another problem which I fixed later). We were headed North so we could now sail, but it was a light wind. We made it back to the entrance of Alligator Creek after dark, and an even lighter wind - think whisper. Luckily it was flood tide as we had about 3-4 miles to sail up the creek. The breeze behind us gave us some steerage and slowly we made our way in the dark without a proper light to spot markers with. We cheered at reaching 1/2 knot on the GPS. When we finally reached the slip we didn't need to slow down. So who needs a schtinkin' motor antway?
I had continual problems with aftermarket fuel lines for my Yamaha 4. They kept leaking air and causing the engine to quit. After three (?) of them, I finally bit the bullet and bought a genuine expensive Yamaha fuel line. Think it was $112 dollars. No problem since.
Ron