Hello All,
First post here but I have been reading many posts for sometime. I want thank everyone for the great and helpful community you have built. I want to especially thank Rob (rbh1515) and Charlie (cdflan) for all the help they have given me by email with questions about their Torqeedo setups and the boats in general.
I'm considering buying a new Horizon Day Cat, I decided against the diesel option as the HDC requires a 9" high engine cover in the middle of the cockpit and I would rather keep the cockpit floor free to move about. Here are the engine choices I have considered:
Torqeedo 1003 Outboard (what Rob (rbh1515) has)
I have discounted this somewhat as I'll be on inland lakes six plus miles long and need to be able to make a beeline for the marina if a Midwest storm comes up, but with a spare battery it may be worth considering.
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 Pod (similar to Charlie's (cdflan) Cruise 4.0 conversion)
Seems like a nice, albeit an expensive option.
Other outboards (improved single handed docking?):
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 outboard (no ethanol gunk, no gas fumes, silent running)
Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL Outboard (EFI to reduce ethanol gunk problems, but heavy)
Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard (lighter, but ethanol gunk problems?)
Lehr 5hp/9.9hp Propane outboard (no gas issues but positive comments on Lehr are hard to find?)
So my question is if you were starting from scratch which engine choice would you pick and why?
Also, how are the HC / HDC for Single Handed docking, would the extra push you get from being able to turn the outboard be an advantage?
Tom
Tom,
I think I had mentioned that my Torqeedo is locked forward since I use the remote throttle. My slip is really easy to get into....no tight turn needed. But once I visited a friend at his slip....tried to pull into the empty slip next to him. It was a tight turn and the wind was wrong and I did not have enough steerage. I would have needed to be able to turn the outboard.
Rob
Quote from: rbh1515 on September 05, 2016, 06:19:35 PM
It was a tight turn and the wind was wrong and I did not have enough steerage. I would have needed to be able to turn the outboard.
Rob,
That is great feedback, thank you. I wondered on the Torqeedo outboards if you can turn them when using the remote throttle, sounds like no. I was wondering with the Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 outboard if you can buy the tiller model and still use the remote. The manual shows the connection is possible when using their 26-104 Lithium battery, but I'll have to call them to see if the that combination is allowed.
Tom
I had a Horizon Cat that was powered with an 8hp Yamaha high thrust motor. I also had a Suncat that I re-powered with the Tohatsu Sail Pro which would be plenty of motor for the Horizon Cat. As for ethanol, I found non-ethanol gas readily available and always treated my gas with Seafoam and have had no issues.
I would chose the 6hp Tohatsu sail pro. For me cost and flexibility would be the driving factor. The gas engine gives you the range you may need with out the potential of running out of power. However your lake sounds relatively small so maybe that isn't an issue.
Regarding the gunking up as you mentioned. I have had a Nissan 5hp 4 stroke on a Sun Cat. At first I had that issue then a very wise mechanic told me to avoid gas with ethanol. I did that and my problems completely vanished and reliability is very very good. Non ethanol gas is available nearly everywhere. The 4 stroke engines sip gas. That's the problem because the tank doesn't turn over very fast plus the alcohol that resides in the carburetor bowl also goes bad. If I don't plan on using the motor much I only put 2 gallons in the tank. I dump it into the car every six months and refill.
Ethanol free gas stations can be found by using this web site. puregas.org
Good Luck
Tom L.
oops... site is pure-gas.org don't forget the dash
Tom L.
Tom,
Have you looked into inboard electric? Motor likely to be small enough to not require any of the cockpit space and I'm sure the HC can accommodate enough battery power for lake sailing. It would probably connect right to the driveshaft used for the diesel motor. Sure would be nice to glide silently along even when there is no wind. I remember people used to make electric motor conversions to outboard motors for use in water reservoirs. They weren't very expensive and worked adequately.
As far as docking, it would be the same as an inboard. You would use bursts of throttle with the wheel (tiller) over for sharp turns, and use prop walk in reverse if the drive shaft is on an angle. Otherwise, you would need enough speed astern for steerage.
Hi Rahn and Tom L.,
Thank you for the recommendation of the Tohatsu Sail Pro and the Ethanol free gas. I found a station about 45 minutes away using the pure-gas.org website. I've read a lot of good reviews on Seaform, thanks for that suggestion as well.
Tom
Potcake adds an interesting alternative with internal drive through the conventional shaft/prop. Looked at both Mastervolt and Elco during my project but both were much more expensive. There is a local "packager" in St. Petersburg with what appears to be an attractive performance/price deal - https://www.electricmarina.com/electric-motors.html. They claim to have between 5 and 6 hundred installations and the price includes charger. The Quietorque 5 lists for $4600 and would be more than enough to drive the HC (mine is a 4.0 kw unit).
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 05, 2016, 10:16:26 PM
Sure would be nice to glide silently along even when there is no wind.
Hi Ron,
I absolutely have heard that siren song, it would be nice. I have looked at doing an inboard electric as well, Com-Pac has the Elco 6hp inboard motor setup on their Launch model, the same hull and deck as the HDC. It still would require a small floor hatch but the price quoted is north of the diesel option price, here is a photo of the Launch setup:
(https://www.com-pacyachts.com/pics/launch/gallery/thumbs/ElcoPropulsion.jpg)
(http://www.com-pacyachts.com/assets/Launch/20140221_135524.jpg)
The Torqeedo Pod seems like a nice solution, but I'm a little concerned how the long term quality and reliability will be. Also, single handed docking may be more challenging having to rely on speed astern for steerage with the Pod.
Tom
Quote from: cdflan on September 06, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Potcake adds an interesting alternative with internal drive through the conventional shaft/prop. Looked at both Mastervolt and Elco during my project but both were much more expensive. There is a local "packager" in St. Petersburg with what appears to be an attractive performance/price deal - https://www.electricmarina.com/electric-motors.html.
Hi Charlie,
Besides the Elco I mentioned above, sounds similar to what you looked at, I've also looked at the Mastervolt 2.6, but your right, the price jumps to go to the larger model to get the power you need. Thanks for the link to electricmarina.com, it looks interesting, I'll review it in detail.
Tom
All of the options except an outboard that can conveniently be pivoted depend on speed astern for steering. Haven't had any problems with my arrangement.
Quote from: cdflan on September 06, 2016, 04:26:37 PM
All of the options except an outboard that can conveniently be pivoted depend on speed astern for steering. Haven't had any problems with my arrangement.
Charlie,
Is that single handed? I wonder if your more powerful Cruise 4.0 helps?
Tom
One solution for a gas powered outboard would be to disconnect the fuel hose when you are back in your slip. Let the motor finish off the remaining fuel in the carb. and voila there is no gunk to worry about. I repowered my HC using a Tohatsu 8 hp engine. Lets of power and very efficient. Down side with large engines is that the weight may be too much for the outboard bracket so check before you buy.
Quote from: blighhigh on September 06, 2016, 06:12:28 PM
I repowered my HC using a Tohatsu 8 hp engine. Lets of power and very efficient.
Hi blighhigh,
Thanks for the gas tip. Can you tell me why you went to the heavier Tohatsu 8 hp engine instead of the Tohatsu 6 hp Sail Pro with it's high thrust prop?
Tom
Mostly ignorance. At the time I didn't realize that the 6 hp engine had an alternator function. I was also thinking of putting the boat into the Gulf of Mexico where the need for extra horse power might come in handy.
Tom,
What is your docking situation? Do you keep her in a slip with electric (the basis of this question is obvious)? Can you go forward into the slip (again obvious)?
Do you trail each time and keep her at home?
We would all like to help you spend your money, but it may be well spent. No more hauling gas, cranky, noisy, vibrating outboard. I think that you are in an ideal situation for electric propulsion whether it be inboard or outboard. Short motoring distances, daily access to shore power for charging. As far as the remote is concerned, it would be the same problem with a gas outboard, and I don't think small gas outboards come ready for remote hook up. In my experience, one of the benefits of an outboard is the ability to steer with it for close maneuvers like docking. So, you can get all the above-mentioned benefits plus super reliability with the Torqeedo and you can easily carry an extra battery for backup. I saw an Americat 22 under way with a Torqeedo and was surprised at how fast it was pushing that boat, and it's about 5000 lbs.
Don't wish to start a firestorm here, but the Tohatsu built 6hp would not be my choice of a gas outboard. As far as I know, Tohatsu also builds the small Mercury and Nissan motors. Had one and hated it. Added insulation to the underside of the cover and bent tight the forward cover hold down to eliminate some of the noise, better but still not good. Used an extra washer under the plastic finger nut to help hold the motor in a straight forward position, helped but not 100%. The vibration will always be there with this motor. Their two cylinder 9.9 is much smoother but as you mentioned there is a weight penalty. I would look for input on a Yamaha or Suzuki in the 6hp range from owners. I had a Suncat with an older Yamaha 4hp, and that motor was amazing for a single cylinder, quiet and smooth and always started even after sitting for a while.
My vote is electric, but it's your money. Best of luck which ever your choice.
Tom
Yes, single handed. Only plus of 4.0 I suspect is faster acceleration when you shove it in reverse.
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 06, 2016, 10:23:24 PM
What is your docking situation?
I saw an Americat 22 under way with a Torqeedo and was surprised at how fast it was pushing that boat, and it's about 5000 lbs.
Hi Ron,
Thank you for the good feedback on the Tohatsu and Yamaha outboards, a lot to consider, a twin outboard would be nicer for its smoother running albeit at a 20-60 pound weight penalty over the smaller one cylinders.
Regarding the Torqeedo on the Americat 22, was is it a smaller 1003 outboard, the larger Cruise 2.0/4.0 outboard or the Pod?
My plan is to be berthed at the marina 90% of the time with the occasional trail to other lakes in Texas, after I retire. There is electric at the slip, pull in or back in is possible. From the below photo you get an idea of the marina I'm considering, while this is an end shot, no telling what will be open when I get the boat, so all turns and directions are possible.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ur99IWZJ6X0/hqdefault.jpg)
I currently sail out of Long Beach, California at Harbor Light Yacht Club, a Capri 22 with Lehr outboard. Sailing one November a nice fog bank rolled in and the wind and waves kicked up, I was full open on the little Lehr throttle and micro prop, headed back into the marina when the propane cylinder ran out, by the time I got the propane canister changed out, I was 50 feet off the nice large jetty rocks. This experience ingrained in me the need for adequate power and taught me the value of Google Maps navigation on my cell phone, in the fog, both situations I hope not to encounter in the future, especially on inland lakes in Texas, save for the tornado or two.
Tom
Tom,
"Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL Outboard (EFI to reduce ethanol gunk problems, but heavy)"
Probably would be overkill on a Horizon cat but this is one great engine. I have the 9.9 BTX on a 7900 pound Sabre 28 and it drives to boat beautifully.
Shawn
Quote from: blighhigh on September 06, 2016, 06:12:28 PM
One solution for a gas powered outboard would be to disconnect the fuel hose when you are back in your slip. Let the motor finish off the remaining fuel in the carb. and voila there is no gunk to worry about. I repowered my HC using a Tohatsu 8 hp engine. Lets of power and very efficient. Down side with large engines is that the weight may be too much for the outboard bracket so check before you buy.
I would like to second the idea of disconnecting the fuel source (or shutting the fuel valve on a motor w/ integral tank) and letting the motor run dry, if you are leaving it for more than overnight. I've had several outboard mechanics recommend this, along with non-ethanol fuel, as the best thing to do for your motor.
Hi Shawn and DanM,
Thanks so much for the tips, keep them coming.
Tom
Tom,
From what I see, your docking situation doesn't seem too difficult even for an inboard. Looks like you have to lower the mast, but a covered slip is nice. Keep in mind that an outboard whether gas or electric will give you total control when maneuvering in close quarters. Having the board at least partially down will help in crosswind situations and give you quicker turns.
I didn't get close enough to see which Torqeedo was used on the Americat, but it seems from my obsevations that they do a superb job of moving displacement hulls, and the portable model allows a spare battery to be easily replaced. Not a bad choice, but as you pointed out, a much bigger investment is required. I'd say that if you are sure of keeping this boat for a while, the extra investment may be worth it if for no other reason than the ease of use.
As far as size goes, seems like a gas 5hp it quite adequqte, but remember that gas engines don't develope the rated horse power until they reach the upper end of their RPM range. Electric motors deliver their full power from RPM 1, so I don't think you need to "size up" to get the performance you desire. The total weight of an electric with LI battery will be much less hanging on the transom than a gas. If I am not mistaken it would also be much easier to raise and lower with that extended cockpit. You may even find a very simple way of raising and lowering it with lines from within the cockpit.
Many sailors have found the "keep it simple" concept to be key to enjoying the sport. Which ever solution works best for you is the right solution, and since sailboats aren't a necessity in life, if we spend a little extra to reach our goal then it's probably worth it.
P.S there are kits available to connect your outboard motor to the rudder for steering, which may play a role for you.
I've had the same experience as potcake boy's post. Used a Nissan (Tohatsu)9.8 for years for a larger boat, pretty good but overall engineered for cost unlike Yamaha which does it right resulting in a higher priced product. I sail a Legacy now with a 4hp 4cycle Yamaha and lovem both. More power than I've ever needed Mike Sr
"As far as size goes, seems like a gas 5hp it quite adequqte, but remember that gas engines don't develope the rated horse power until they reach the upper end of their RPM range. Electric motors deliver their full power from RPM 1, so I don't think you need to "size up" to get the performance you desire."
You are comparing HP vs. torque though. HP = ( torque X RPM) / 5252
An electric motor delivers full torque at 0 RPM (and 0 HP) but that can also mean it produces less torque as RPM increases depending upon the design. The torque curve on a gas engine is complicated (follows VE curve) but it of course needs to be spinning to generate torque and max torque will be around 2/3 of max RPM. Max HP depends upon the torque curve and the max RPM of the engine.
Because the electrics can generate torque so low they end up being geared and propped a bit different than a gas engine. The lower prop speed can help reduce slipping which is where the "equivalent to" comes into play somewhat.
But in real terms a gas engine will have more power available (assuming it is propped correctly to reach peak RPM).
The Torqueedo 1003 has a battery capacity of 530 watt hours. It can put out 530 watts for 1 hour. 1 HP is equivalent to 745 watts. A 5 hp outboard is 3725 watts (1hp = 745 w). A 3 gallon tank of gas would last a bit over 6 hours on a 5hp outboard. A 530 watt hour battery trying to duplicate that 3725 watts would be drained very quickly... about 9 minutes assuming it can safely put out that much power.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on September 08, 2016, 10:32:16 PM
You are comparing HP vs. torque though. HP = ( torque X RPM) / 5252
But in real terms a gas engine will have more power available (assuming it is propped correctly to reach peak RPM).
1 HP is equivalent to 745 watts. A 5 hp outboard is 3725 watts (1hp = 745 w).
Hello Shawn,
Thanks so much for the great explanation, I was wondering what the conversion was for the equivalent power.
Thank you, Tom
Actually, Shawn I wasn't attempting to make comparisons, just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be necessary to up the power for an electric system. In fact, Torqeedo states their ratings as "equivalent". Most of us operate our gas motors at no more than half throttle unless there are adverse conditions to deal with. The reason is usually for smoother and quieter operation, and better fuel efficiency. That means that we are not actually utilizing that manufacturer rated hp. Many manufacturers provide two hp models from the same block, the difference being the carburetor, and manifold. When compared, the difference is the maximum RPM. With better torque characteristics of electric motors performance should be equal but with lower RPM from the electrics. It would be helpful if Torqeedo provided the basis of their "equivalent" ratings. It would also be helpful if they would provide efficiency curves. Somewhere I recall seeing runtime rating comparisons for different throttle settings. That would be helpful in gauging the storage needs for each application. Considering the price of LI batteries and that weight isn't such a critical factor on a HC, I think it worth examining the suitability of using AGM storage. I once used a trolling motor on my Picnic Cat with a single group 24 battery, but studied the possibility of placing two batteries in the bilge, one on each side of the centerboard trunk, but sold it before I did that project. Don't remember what torque rating the motor was, but it wasn't the biggest and propelled the Picnic Cat just fine. How long does Hutchins say you can run their electric rig between chargings?
I have done those numbers myself to determine if electric would be a practical option. Unfortunately, as a cruiser, it isn't yet quite adequate. I looked at all kinds of methods of generating and storing the power needed for long distance cruising and couldn't find a suitable solution. Cruising in open water with unpredictable destinations dictates that you have plenty of energy capacity as you can't count on recharging in a marina after a days' motoring. It's easy to carry extra gas. As for lake sailing, I think it not too difficult to make do with electric, and believe the quiet and simplicity is a considerable reward.
Long story short, there is more than a hand full of sailboats that I have seen successfully using electric power. There is at least one company (I'm sure there are more) to my knowledge that provides electric propulsion as standard equipment for one of their daysailor models. I can only assume from these observations that it is indeed viable for some applications. If it would work for me, I'd already be there.
Some interesting analyses! I was a science major and used to know all that electrical stuff, but it is in cobwebs now.
Here is my real world analysis of the Torqeedo 1003 on my HDC:
1) Cost: Expensive but not over the top expensive. Retail $1999; got it from Defender during their spring sale for 20% off retail. Offsetting the high price, I don't buy gas and there is no yearly maintenance. After 5 years there is maintenance needed, and I don't yet know the cost.
2) Ease of use: push a button to start. Don't have to yank on anything. Shifter is built into the throttle, so you don't have to reach back to shift. There is an available remote throttle...that's what I use, and it makes life very easy! Battery weighs 10#, and engine weighs 20#. Easy to take on and off. Since I use the remote throttle, I don't have the tiller throttle attached, and it is very easy to tilt the outboard out of the water.
3) Reliability/customer service: I am nearing the end of my 2nd season and have had no problems. Their customer service is amazing. I called a number of times with questions before I bought it, and their people are incredibly knowledgeable.
4) Range: For my day sailing on Lake Michigan it has been great. I have never come back with less than 70% power left. I do get a bit nervous about sailing out 5 to 10 miles and having the wind die. That could be a problem.
5) Power: I usually use about half throttle and go between 2.5 to 3 knots....kind of slow motion, but usually I'm not in a hurry. If I'm in a hurry, I'll give it full throttle and go 4 knots. The battery will only last about 30 minutes full power.
6) Noise/vibration/exhaust smell: none...maybe a low whine to the motor.
Torqeedo just came out with a 915Wh battery. That would give me 1 hour ar full throttle. It's not cheap, but I'll try to buy it on sale and I think this will solve my range anxiety.
Bottom line: I think it's great for daysailing, if you don't have to fight any currents etc. I go out all the time on Lake Michigan in 15 knot winds. I typically don't have to fight waves because I sail into the inner harbor which is protected.
Rob
Rob,
Thanks for that great bit of input from real world experience.
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 09, 2016, 05:54:23 PM
Considering the price of LI batteries and that weight isn't such a critical factor on a HC, I think it worth examining the suitability of using AGM storage.
How long does Hutchins say you can run their electric rig between chargings?
Regarding AGM vs LI:
ODYSSEY® PC1800-FT AGM
12 volt
132 pounds
214 Ah
400 cycles at 80% depth of discharge (DOD)
$500 each
(for 24 volt Torqeedo Curise 2.0 you need two, for 48 volt Torqeedo Curise 4.0 you need four, this is what Charlie used)
vs:
Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC
24 volt
54 pounds
104 Ah
800 cycles at 100% depth of discharge (DOD)
$2,600
(for 24 volt Torqeedo Curise 2.0 you need one, for 48 volt Torqeedo Curise 4.0 you need two)
So you can see you need two sets of the ODYSSEY® PC1800-FT AGM for roughly the same life of one Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC:
2 x 132 lbs - 264 lbs
2 x $500 = $1,000
2 x 2 sets of batteries = $2,000
vs.
The Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC setup is:
1 x 54 lbs - 54 lbs
1 x $2,600 = $2,600
1 x 1 battery = $2,600
Hutchins does not list the range of The Launch, they are using 3 x 130 pound 12 volt batteries for the Elco 6hp motor, not sure of the battery type. However, they only built the prototype, no one has bought one.
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 06, 2016, 10:23:24 PM
I would look for input on a Yamaha or Suzuki in the 6hp range from owners. I had a Suncat with an older Yamaha 4hp, and that motor was amazing for a single cylinder, quiet and smooth and always started even after sitting for a while.
Quote from: rbh1515 on September 09, 2016, 10:50:09 PM
Some interesting analyses! I was a science major and used to know all that electrical stuff, but it is in cobwebs now.
Great analysis and opinions by all, Rob and Ron, you both have mentioned the Yamaha 4 or 6 hp. Interesting to look at the RPM specs:
Yamaha F6 hp
6hp @ 5000rpm
4500 ~ 5500 rpm
Yamaha F4 hp
4hp at 4500 rpm
4000 ~ 5000 rpm
Since you cannot get a four blade high-thrust prop on these like you can on the Tohatsu 6hp sail pro, I found the lowest pitch three blade prop Yamaha has for the 4/6 hp models:
Yamaha Propeller 7 1/4 dia x 6 1/2 pitch (P/N 6E0-45949-00-00)
Do you think the 4hp with its lower RPM and lower pitch prop is enough to push the HC/HDC along in wind and chop?
Most important, is the 20" lenght shaft on the Yamaha enough on the HC/HDC or do you really need the longer 25" shaft available on the Tohatsu 6hp sail pro?
I currently have a Yamaha 4HP on my 19. Does a great job even in winds of 30+ knots. Three blade prop, half throttle is hull speed.
TG
Tom,
Thanks for sharing that research, looks like we are closer than I thought to a practical solution. So I'm seeing that in the long run there may be very little cost difference? I really like the LI technology, and would probably go that direction myself if for no other reason than to continue LI development.
About 12 years ago I had a 4hp Yamaha on my Colgate 26. Loved the motor. Was very reliable, and pushed the boat along in wind and waves at 1/2 throttle.
Rob
For those of you using a 20" shaft outboard, is it long enough when using it on the factory motor bracket on either the HC or HDC?
Since I'll be on inland lakes I don't need to worry about swells.
I think 20 inches is marginal, 25 is much better.
Rob,
"1) Cost: Expensive but not over the top expensive. Retail $1999; got it from Defender during their spring sale for 20% off retail. Offsetting the high price, I don't buy gas and there is no yearly maintenance. After 5 years there is maintenance needed, and I don't yet know the cost."
There will also be the cost of a replacement battery when that time comes. The smaller battery is around $600 or so. Overall ongoing costs of the Torqeedo vs a small outboard are probably going to be not all that far apart. If you get a 7 year life out of the battery it is costing you about $85 a year. An outboards maintenance and fuel should be there or likely less... assuming you do the work yourself.
"2) Ease of use: push a button to start. Don't have to yank on anything. Shifter is built into the throttle, so you don't have to reach back to shift. There is an available remote throttle...that's what I use, and it makes life very easy! "
This is a big benefit! This is all doable with an outboard too but not the smaller models. Going from a manual tilt, pull start outboard on my Compac to the eventual electric start, remote controlled, power tilt Suzuki on my Sabre is a dramatic difference in ease of use. Some of the small outboards have kits to add remote throttle and shifting but it would still be pull start and manual tilt.
"Battery weighs 10#, and engine weighs 20#. Easy to take on and off. Since I use the remote throttle, I don't have the tiller throttle attached, and it is very easy to tilt the outboard out of the water."
That is fantastic. I have to deal with a 120 pound outboard.......
"Torqeedo just came out with a 915Wh battery. That would give me 1 hour ar full throttle."
That suggests the engine is making at or a little above 1hp at full throttle. That is roughly what all the old British Seagull outboards actually made. But due to their gearing and prop size (sound familiar) they had the ability to push pretty heavy boats decently.
Shawn
Quote from: Zephyros on September 10, 2016, 12:46:40 PM
For those of you using a 20" shaft outboard, is it long enough when using it on the factory motor bracket on either the HC or HDC?
Since I'll be on inland lakes I don't need to worry about swells.
What about wake? Also consider where the powerhead would be on your transom with a 20" shaft vs. a 25" shaft. That can make a difference in ease of use when trying to pull start, or reach the shifter.
Shawn
Shawn,
Excellent point about the battery life! It will be interesting to see how long it lasts. So far in the second season, I don't notice any degradation, but they do say that it degrades every year. You definitely have to take care of the battery. They say to keep the battery away from heat. They also have recommendations on what to do during the winter. I hope I get more than 7 years. Maybe in seven years the batteries will be dirt cheap?!
Rob
So it looks like if the consensus is the HC/HDC needs a 25" shaft length outboard, these are the only choices I can find, did I miss any others in the 4-5-6 hp range?
Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard:
Model #: MFS6CSPROUL
Shaft Length: 25"
Weight: 59 lbs
Cylinders: One (vib/rumble running)
Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL EFI outboard:
Electric Start / Power Tilt
Model #: DF9.9BTH
Shaft Length: 25"
Weight: 127 lbs
Cylinders: Two (smooth running)
>>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two cylinders?
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 T outboard:
Model #: Cruise 2.0 TS / Cruise 2.0 TL
Shaft Length: 25"(S) / 30"(L)
Weight: 39 lbs(S) / 41 lbs(L)
So from what I can see the trade-offs are:
Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard:
Lightest weight
Still really need to remove for towing, although some strap it up for support and trailer anyway
Roughest running, one cylinder, vibration and rumble
Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL EFI outboard:
>>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two smooth running cylinders?
Okay, it's heavy, so maybe, just a thought, I concede to loose the trailer and just stay at one lake, knowing that the benefits of the engine out weight the ability to trailer it anywhere. Now the reality I need to evaluate, I've bought a lot of stuff in life with all the options, cars, computers, etc, and then never use those options, food for thought!
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 T outboard:
Weight is the best, option of 25" or 30" shaft, priced about $3,400 more than the Suzuki ($800 more for the motor plus $2,600 for the battery)
Now one huge consideration, where Rob can take his Torqeedo 1003 removable battery home with him after sailing, the 54 pound Torqeedo 26-104 battery is not really something you want to disconnect and haul home every time. This leads us to capacity loss and battery temperature:
Average capacity loss per year:
4% at 77 °F ambient temperature*
% loss at elevated temperature - NOT PUBLISHED?
*Depending on utilization and environmental temperature
(more on this in the next post)
"Torqeedo Battery Average capacity loss" continued from above post:
Torqeedo Battery Chemistry: LiNMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide)
http://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/batteries/power-26-104/2103-00.html
Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4)
Most Li-manganese batteries blend with lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) to improve the specific energy and prolong the life span. This combination brings out the best in each system, and the LMO (NMC) is chosen for most electric vehicles, such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt and BMW i3.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
Which leads to articles on Nissan Leaf having serious temperature related capacity loss issues for cars located in Arizona and Texas heat:
All The Results From Independent Test Of Nissan LEAFs With Lost Capacity. Not All Instrument Failure
The Nissan LEAF electric car was introduced to the world as a mass production vehicle during December 2010. Almost 40,000 have been sold around the world in the short time since then, with well over 10,000 sold in the USA. Unfortunately, a percentage of those USA cars that are operated in hot climates, such as Phoenix, Arizona, and the state of Texas, have experienced accelerated losses of the vehicle's range autonomy, when compared to its performance when new. The phenomenon is not relegated solely to areas of extreme heat; many LEAFs now in moderate temperature areas of California have also experienced significant range autonomy reduction, however not yet to the extent of those cars exposed to Arizona and Texas heat.
http://insideevs.com/all-the-results-from-the-largest-independent-test-of-nissan-leafs-with-lost-capacity-not-instrument-failure/
Nissan Leaf Lawsuit: New Battery Replacement for Unhappy Customers
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/nissan-leaf-lawsuit-battery/#.V9VyMa1v4aA
So in deep diving into battery technology, this paper gives the first clue after a couple of hours of research:
On page 48 you see the battery charging graphs in Seattle vs Phoenix:
Battery Durability in Electrified Vehicle Applications:
Geek Alert Warning, this paper goes deep, such as:
Moreover, changes in the stoichiometry of the transition metals have been reported in aged NMC materials.
https://www2.unece.org/wiki/download/attachments/29884985/EVE-18-04e.pdf?api=v2
Summary:
The Torqeedo 26-104 is a passivly cooled LiNMC battery. Located in the bilge area of a HC or HDC in full Texas sun I'm guessing it may see temperatures of 100-120 degrees on a hot day. Since I plan to keep it in a covered slip even there I suspect the bilge area would still get to about 90-110 degrees on a hot day.
So the next question is, does this just really beg to say, at $2,600 per battery, do I want to go there. Or, perhaps if I put a timer on the charger and only allow charging at night during the low temperature of the day that maybe this will help increase the battery life? Recommendation: More research required.
">>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two cylinders?"
Also double the charging capacity, a real oil filter, MUCH more displacement (low end torque, same engine as the 20hp Suzuki) and NMEA 2000. If you have a chartplotter you can get a bunch of engine data on it for RPM, temp, fuel consumption and so on. Full remote is also available as the 9.9BTX model.
With that much weight on the stern you will need to compensate as your waterline is going to be changed. You will be dragging your stern. The Suzuki on my stern (and removing the inboard) changed my waterline a bit. I added about 80 pounds of chain to my anchor locker to help compensate for it.
You will also need to upgrade your motor mount. If you place the mount well you might not need it to be a lifting mount. Tilt could get it completely out of the water. It turns out that is how I use mine.
Click here to see it running....
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8602/28419585532_3f34d341d0_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KikNE1)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/KikNE1) by Compac23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/39387871@N06/), on Flickr
It is a great motor, but it is overkill for a Horizon Cat.
Have you considered an electric trolling motor? Minn Kota has a few with around 100 pounds of thrust, that should move you fine. It uses standard batteries.
Shawn
To be really cool you could put two trolling motors on the transom. Run one or both as needed, and have the maneuverability of twin engines. Probably less money than Torqeedo and you can place batteries near the centerline for proper trim. As I mentioned earlier I used a trolling motor on my Picnic Cat and it moved it just fine. Started out with a group 24 battery for trial purposes but sold the boat before I had a chance to upgrade to two larger capacity batteries which I had planned to place on either side of the centerboard case. With two batteries installed you could wire it to use 24 VDC motors which are even more efficient. You could just use a fixed bracket for these motors because you can adjust the depth of the shaft. Using AGM batteries you wouldn't have to worry about the charging issues of LI. Just get a decent two battery charger (I like the Genius charger myself). From what I've read you can get 4 or 5 hours runtime at medium speed with two group 31 batteries and two medium sized trolling motors, or more with a single 24 VDC. This rig with charger and all shouldn't cost more than $1,200 - $1,300.
If you let this thing get any more complicated you'll never get around to going sailing. Besides, the mechanical propulsion is "auxiliary". Buy a trolling motor somewhere that you can return it (Walmart probably has pretty good prices), mount it on your boat with a decent battery (you'll) need one anyway and try it out. Real life experience is always better than theory, and a lot more fun.
I did use a trolling motor on my dinghy. Worked great. Quiet (which is one of the reasons that I love sailing.) Cheap. Light weight and easy to manipulate. I hadn't thought of the idea of using two on a HC transom but why not! Good suggestion.
Quote from: Shawn on September 11, 2016, 12:15:53 PM
With that much weight on the stern you will need to compensate as your waterline is going to be changed.
You will also need to upgrade your motor mount. If you place the mount well you might not need it to be a lifting mount.
Hi Shawn,
Great video and information of the data you can get from the Suzuki, nice an quiet, thank you. I looked at the Minn Kota's and the largest they have is a 2hp at $3,000. I really want to stay 4hp minimum to get through the wake and chop during typical 20mph winds of the Great Plains you get across the Texas lakes.
Great suggestion on the fixed bracket, thank you. Next time your at your boat would you mind please measuring your Suzuki 9.9 in its full tilted up position, the point from the top of the cowling to the transom. Basically, what would the setback need to be for a fixed bracket, such as 12", 15", 21", etc and have clearance for the fuel and remote lines bend radius?
Tom
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 11, 2016, 03:57:59 PM
If you let this thing get any more complicated you'll never get around to going sailing. Besides, the mechanical propulsion is "auxiliary".
Ron,
You are so correct, I'm trying to overcome an occupational hazard that carries over into my personal life. I'm an engineer for aircraft systems, my job requires me to think through all the what-if scenarios and design around potential issues.
Quote from: Potcake boy on September 11, 2016, 03:57:59 PM
Real life experience is always better than theory, and a lot more fun.
So true, but I'm about a year out from retirement so I'm working through how I want to setup my sailboat while I have the luxury of time. Believe me, if I could I would order the boat today and retire tomorrow. I really want to get out of theory and work on my broad reach, the shifting winds at Long Beach Harbor are always a challenge to harness.
Tom,
Good luck with retirement, I hope the year passes quickly for you. One day you will look back and realize that retirement was the best career move you ever made. Work isn't so bad until it interferes with sailing. That being said, I appreciate your sharing all this process with everyone here, as most of us are short on real world experience with electric propulsion. Many years ago I understood that the US Army, in their quest for alternative energy and drive systems, determined that the most efficient drive train was in fact just that, a train with diesel/electric power. Unfortunately, there are some peripheral issues for us sailors, the biggest being weight. For a barge however, it might be just the ting.
I'm still in love with the idea of electric propulsion, maybe Musk will turn his passion to sailing. My future plans are for long term cruising/liveaboard off the grid on a boat that is somewhat more weight sensitive, and that puts electric out of the running as I see it.
Tom,
I will measure it next time I am down there though it is a little hard to do. I have the install manual if that will help, PM me your email. Depending upon the diagram I am looking at it is either 12.2 or 13.3 inches from the back edge of mounting plate to the front of the cowl when it is fully tilted up. That isn't taking into consideration the tiller on the tiller steered model, just the engine itself.
Tilting in action...
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7490/27869021122_d558bab312_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JsG23b)IMG_4700 (https://flic.kr/p/JsG23b) by Compac23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/39387871@N06/)
Another of the engine in action...
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7330/28010504555_66b13ea962_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H)IMG_4707 (https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H) by Compac23 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/39387871@N06/)
That is a little over half throttle. Full throttle is with the handle horizontal. That is with the big 4 blade high thrust prop that comes on the 9.9BTX. Clearly I am a big fan of this engine, so much nicer than my old diesel inboard.:)
Shawn
Hi Shawn,
Thank so much for the great pics and video, PM sent.
Tom
Hello All,
So in looking around for a fixed motor mount that will hold a heavier 9.9 hp outboard I found this one from Tanner Mfg. You can see it has a slight angle to the transom mounting surface. Can anyone estimate if the angle on this is about the same angle on the Horizon so the bracket would end up level?
http://www.tannermfg.com/motorbrackets
(https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/7dc9caed/dms3rep/multi/desktop/4055-CroppedS2-350x272.jpg)
Also, with the slight curvature of the Horizon transom does the flat mounting of the Tanner look like it would mount okay or do you really need a mount with the two separate mounting plates like on the standard Garelick mount to fit the curvature?
(https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/7dc9caed/dms3rep/multi/desktop/4059-CroppedS-350x329.jpg)
Thank you, Tom
Those considering a Torqeedo may find this of interest, a review written by a member at our sailing club who is an electrical engineer. This is on the Ensign website, and while the Ensign is a very different boat, the comments may be worth a read. His basic opinion of the Torqueedo is "electrically sophisticated, mechanically crude." http://www.ensignclass.com/about-us/articles/117-product-reviews
Dan,
Interesting to read a review on the Torqeedo. I have had mine now for nearly two seasons. I think the author may have been overthinking things a bit. I keep my motor attached to the motor mount all the time with the pin in place to keep the motor in the straight forward position. My motor is locked on. The only thing I take on and off are the battery. It only weighs 10#. I would never leave the battery connected to the engine, and I would never leave it in the boat...I bring it home to charge. I bought the carrying case to protect it during transport. It's got a strap I can put right over my shoulder. Also, I don't use the tiller throttle. There is an infinitely better solution...the remote throttle. It also has the same display on it, and you can sit it right next to you when motoring! The manual gives directions on lubricating the connectors on a periodic basis....I do it on a regular basis. I don't have to change oil or lube anything or clean any carbs, so the lubrication is pretty minor. I also keep 2 spare magnets on the boat, and a spare prop, and I keep the tiller throttle on the boat as a backup. I also have a paddle...have never used it! I'm also not an engineer!
Rob
Having to scramble to immediately raise the Torqeedo when you put the sail up for fear of burning out the electric motor is a frustration I share as well. I like using the the motor to keep the boat pointed into the wind when raising the sails, and sometimes like to motor sail. Plus the fact that the tiller doesn't swing up enough when tilted to clear the transom on my Sun Cat is my second biggest frustration, although I know you can swivel it 90 or 180 degrees to solve this, but this is just another bothersome step.
But there are many advantages over a gas engine as pointed out. However, I'm still not ready to give up my Tohatsu 3.5 and go solely with the Torqeedo. I carry the Torqeedo in my car as a back up to the lake in case the Tohatsu were to give me problems upon launching at the ramp. The Torqeedo collapses nicely and I carry all the parts in a long duffle bag. I am hesitant about using a remote throttle because there are times when i need the increased steerage of a tiller on the Torqeedo in heavy winds to turn the Sun Cat - the rudder alone won't do it. I don't have the same issue with the Tohatsu - plenty of power in heavy winds to turn the boat by rudder alone.
Rob,
I stopped at West Marine yesterday and looked at the Torqeedo 1003, it does look like a nice option.
Bilge Rat,
Great observations about the Torqeedo and wind, from your location I assume you are sailing the San Francisco Bay? Similar wind I expect to see in Texas.
Following the KISS principle as well, the Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro is the next best, hard to beat option.
Ron and Charlie,
Regarding the tip on Electric Inboard, following Charlie's link I found they were a dealer for Electric Yacht.
http://electricyacht.com/product/electric-propulsion-compact-plug-n-play/
I went to the Southern California Boat Show yesterday and talked with the local Electric Yacht dealer, it looks like a viable option.
Another route for Electric Inboard I found:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/electric-sailboat-kits-and-accessories-inboard-motor-ev.html
Now off to calculate power and hull speed, does anyone know the Prismatic Coefficient of the Horizon? :-)
http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/prismatic-coefficient.html
Now as to "overthinking things a bit" likewise, guilty as charged, the engineer in me is always wondering, heck, call it healthy retirement brain activity, on the other hand, I really appreciate the sane advice here to keep it simple.
I did seriously look at the outboards yesterday and test drive my new tow vehicle, a 2017 Honda Ridgeline.
Hey Tom: Good choice on the Ridgeline. We just have about 2000 miles on ours and really like it especially as a 1 car family.
regards charlie
Zephyoros,
I mostly sail on inland lakes in Northern Ca/Bay Area. Winds can be quite gusty at times on these lakes. In fact one of the lakes I sail (Lake Del Valle outside Livermore, CA) is sort of in a canyon (similar to Columbia Gorge). In the late afternoon the winds can come howling down the lake from the dam presenting some challenging sailing conditions.
The Thunderstruck-ev looks intriguing. It would be a great engineering project for you.