I was changing the oil yesterday on my 1991 27 (Universal M2-12), when I noticed water leaking from the raw water pump where its attached to the block.
I don't see any gasket for sale in the manuals or that one exists, the pump seems tight but only connected with 2 of the 4 screws from what I can see.
Its the Sherwood pump with 6 screws on the impeller cover.
Has anyone ever removed this pump and is there some type of gasket material needed. And if anyones removed the pump any things to watch out for?
Thanks -
Carl
Carl Stephens
CP 27/2 # 126
"Knot Again"
Go to www.marinedieseldirect.com. There you will find any/all infor re: M2-12, including diagrams.
Carl,
I assume you would have a manual for your Universal engine. It would show the presence of a gasket. If you don't have one you can get one here:
http://www.marineengine.com/manuals/universal/index.html
I'm totally not familiar with your engine (I have a Yanmar) but would guess either the gasket is missing or you have shaft wear and the inner seal is leaking. I also found a marine diesel forum you could try. Just google Universal Marine m12 and look around. Let us know what you find.
Steve
cp27/2
Steve,
The manual does not show a gasket. There is an inner seal in the diagram. Would that cause water to leak out between the pump and the block?
Carl
Carl Stephens
CP27 #126
"knot Again"
Carl,
Yes a poor seal or worn shaft will definately allow water to leak out past the pump body. Before replacing the seal make certain the shaft isn't worn as a new seal will just give you the same problem. I was reading one of the posts on the diesel forum where the original type of water pump had this kind of problem. Rather than replacing the shaft it is easier to just replace the whole pump with the new replacement offered. Apparently a manufacturing change was made to a different pump at some point in time. Blog said was same cost to upgrade as to repair. I suggest you call someone at Universal or a Universal dealer and check with them and probably get ready to just replace the pump body and shaft together. Fixing it now will give you peace of mind for not a lot of money. Let us know how you're doing at this.
Good luck, buenos fortuna et al.
Steve
Wanna save a ton of money with a waterpump replacement? I bought the Kubota tractor replacement pump (Kubota made this engine) for 93 dollars. Universal's price? somewhere around 250 or so. You will have to do some research as far as the Kubota/Universal cross-numbering goes. I found it with a Google search. Dave.
One other thing......it had a gasket. Dave.
Thanks, I'll look it up.
I have plenty of time, just took the boat out on Saturday. Have until April to get it and figure out how to do it. Dave, was that the Raw water pump you found from kabota?
The price thru Torrenson was almost $400.
Carl
Carl, could it be you just need a gasket? I believe I could have a local machine shop make me a pump for under $ 400 lol :)
steve paul
Yes Carl, I went to the Kubota tractor dealer to get the part. But I had to get the number off of the internet as the Kubota guys were unaware that the same block was used in a marine application. It was a home lawn tractor albeit a very large one. I will see if I can find the information online here. The one thing that I have to be careful about is that mine is not the M2-12. It is just the M-12. But a quick look on the Universal site should show the same part number if they are in fact the same. I would be surprised if they changed anything between the two as far as that goes.
Dave.
Oops, I guess I DO have a M2-12! Dave.
I did a little searching and on the Catalina30.com site they have a FAQ section where Kubota/Universal motor numbers were listed. The M15 was the smallest motor noted. I also found some info on a site named Tractorsmart.com. If you look at their Kubota "B" series tractors, you will see a photo of the water pump you want. Once I saw the part number, I recognized it as the one I ordered. Tractorsmart's price was $91.66. Part number 15534-73030. The catalina site noted that the motor model number is stamped on the dipstick. I seem to recall that mine did not have a stamp. I further seem to recall that I had to order the M2-12 part even though mine is the M-12. Forget what I said in my earlier post about mine being a M2-12. Somewhere I saw an exploded view of both engines and it appeared that the two engines had the same hole pattern. So I went for it and it works.
Make sure that the water pump comes with the gasket. As I recall, both myself and the parts man were surprised that it was not included. If I find anymore info, I will surely pass it on. Good luck. Dave.
Please accept my humblest apologies. I just realized the pump I replace was the fresh water pump. Probably not a whole lot of tractors out there with a raw water pump huh? Anyways, there is a site called marinepartssource.com. They had two raw water pumps available. I dont know if they both work but the price difference was significant! The Westerbeke replacement was $320.00 and the Sherwood was $237.90. They had real clear photos of each piece for you to look at. Hope this helps. Dave.
Carl,
I have just found this forum so you may have all this straightened out already, but just in case... I have an '86 27' Compac with (I think) that same engine and the raw water pump does have a gasket but it is an oil gasket and would not have anything to do with the water leaking. The origional pump was terrible and was replaced on later year models with a much improved model so be sure you use this replacement. If you need model numbers, schematics, or vendors let me know as I have saved all that info since I replaced mine. I think I even have the factory notice about the replacement.
One IMPORTANT point. When mounting the pump be sure to point the inlet/exit UP or the pump will loose it's prime and run dry - causing very early degradition
Jim,
Thanks for the offer. I have not replaced the raw water pump yet - leaving it for a spring job.
If you have the info on the replacement that would be great. I've contacted torrenson marine and they seem to have most parts for the Universal Diesels.
The M2-12 is very similar to the M12 but was made from 1989 to 92 I think. A lot of the parts are the same. Mine has the sherwood pump with 6 screws and round cover.
Good to have someone with 20 years experience with the 27. Mines a 1991 but I just bought it 2 years ago.
Carl Stephens
Com-Pac 27/2
"Knot Again"
Carl,
I looked thru my boat papers and found the service bulletin (#88-54-3) so I scanned it for you, however your e-mail address is hidden and I don't have any idea as to how to upload it to this web-site. If you will get me your e-mail I will forward it to you.
Since the first numbers are 88 it may designate the year it was inacted so your engine may already have this modification. but it shows a good break-out of the pump and it's parts along with part numbers.
Good luck!
Jim
Jim,
Sorry for the late reply, I only check the forum every few days in the winter. With snow and ice sailing is the last thing on my mind in NY.
E-Mail address is stephens84@yahoo.com
Thanks for the info.
Carl
Glad to help, it's on the way.
Winter here "IS" sailing weather. Last night was a little cold to be "on the hook" however. It got down into the fourties! Burr! Today is sunny and 74, and Miss B. is still not together yet.
Jim
I have this same issue on my M2-12 (about 1 drip per second when the engine is running). I was curious if any knows if there's a risk of water from the pump leaking into the engine case. There doesn't appear to be any water in the oil, but since the boat is new to me, I'm not sure how long this leak has been going on.
Did you end up replacing the pump? If so, which did you use? Any catches or issues to look out for when replacing?
Thanks!
Wow, this is an old thread.
Is there any current advice on a freshwater pump.
I would appreciate any direction on how to save money by ordering Kubota parts.
Part #301336 from Universal is listed at $330.55 (Toad Marine Supply) from Google search.
We took the boat out in the river planning to swing the new Raymarine autopilot compass. Just past the bridge the engine started making some different sounds. Stopped the engine checked for serious leaks, fan belt, out of bounds temperatures. Didn't see anything so started it back up and checked the engine, noted that the freshwater pump was not spinning on its axis all of the time, the pulley would deflect. Crossed my fingers and headed back to the marina. Made it in ok. Pulled the pump, the impeller can move 1/8 inch, although not leaking it would seem that the bearing is worn. When I was cleaning up standing in the starboard cockpit locker turning off the raw water through hull, I noticed a triangular pice of plywood that was jammed under the water heater/fuel tank platform, was now jammed under the shaft coupling. It had some gouge marks in it probably adding to the weird engine noises. Next time I will check the prop shaft first, then the generator belt.
I think that you, "Learn more by sailing 'classic' boats."
Thanks for any helpful hints.
regards charlie
Charlie - it might be worthwhile to call Keith Scott at the Sailboat Company. I was on the phone with him not long ago talking about my 27 restoration project, and we got off on water pumps for the Universal. He was an amazing wealth of information, freely offered.
Wes
Wes:
I took your advice and called up Keith. After balancing all the input, and my desire to get back on the water, decided to order a new pump from Universal via a local mechanic. I plan on looking into getting the other one rebuilt at my leisure. I will post how that works out.
Thanks.
regards charlie
For the standard Kubota parts on these engine going through the tractor dealer (agricultural) is still the expensive route. Kubota is the worlds largest industrial engine supplier under 100hp. Go the industrial route and call Engine Power source out of Rock Hill SC. Dont say sailboat as they wont want to sell to you. You need to talk engine code and I always have my Kubota part numbers ready.
Hey Koinonia:
I am finding out that under the poorly spray painted gold that my engine is Kubota blue! or at least parts of it are...... Where can I get an M12 looking Kubota parts manual?
I agree that the Kubota parts folks very much do not want to talk Universal.
Thanks.
Charlie
yup, thats why when I sprayed my M25XP for Koinonia, I went with Kubota Blue. Looks a whole lot better than Universal gold which looks dirty when new. The M12 is based off the Kubota Z-400 engine. I checked and I dont have PDF file for this engine. Some searching online will be in order as youll have to work your way through the sites trying to sell the manual through downloading. Usually you can find them free somewhere, you just have to look. Or maybe somebody on the site already has the PDF and they can just send it strait to you.
Josh