The clutch on my Hurth HBW 50-2r is shot. I need to get a new as the part to rebuild my existing one are not available or so prohibitive its cheaper to get a new one. I'm leaning towards the new one. Any thoughts ?
1992 Compac 27
Thanks
Stephen
Hey Stephen:
I don't have any solution(s) for you but am always interested in required repairs on C-27's.
I had thought that there was a synchronizer of some sort to allow the gears to mesh without grinding, rather than a clutch.
Please continue to blog about the problem and your solution.
regards charlie
From the research ive done, There is a clutch. I didn't take it apart, my yard is handling the repairs. There is another cp 27 in the yard not sure the vintage. But he had some linkage issues with the cable to the transmission lever. You have to make sure the cable pushes the lever completely forward. Mine engaged in forward but not fully and burned up the clutch, the fluid got so hot it evaporated. It was only a 1 hour trip. And everything appeared and sounded normal. No fun docking in 25 mph winds with reverse only.
I had a hurth on a 74 Tartan 37 and it was important that the linkage be adjusted so that the shift would literally slam into gear. Forward or reverse. Sounded terrible but that's the way it has to be. If it is adjusted to shift softly it will not fully engage the clutch and will overheat the clutch.
Tom L.
There is one in the consignment shop located in Wickford, RI. It has been there a few years. I know it is the right one because it looks just like my spare trans from my parts boat.
Bruce
S/V Allure
I should be boat shopping for a bigger boat by the end of the season, then everything from the parts boat goes with Allure.
the replacement for my transmission is either zf or twin disk zf is almost double twin disk. 1100 m vs 2100. So, does anyone have an opinion on twin disk transmission? Or zf vs twin disk ?
Thanks
Betterdays
Hi:
Sounds like your intent is to buy new? I'd check into the used one I mentioned before spending that kind of money.
Of course only my opinion.
Bruce
I replaced my transmission last year. I bought a Tmc 40 from Joe DeMers at
Sound Marine Diesel. He used to rebuild the hurts, but stopped because in his opinion it is a poor design.
According to Joe;
The TMC 40 is a much better gear, because of the below reasons.
1] simple cone clutch construction. [ he Hurth uses a multi disc type clutch, more complicated, more expensive, and unreliable]
2] Overbuilt for 20 hp [ this gear is standard on our 30hp engine ]
3] direct replacement of the Hurth [ just bolt it on ]
4] 1 year warranty when buying a new gear [ Hurth /ZF is known for making any warranty claims a BIG HASSLE]
5] much less $ than a Hurth / ZF gear
So far I have been happy with new tranny.
Some other things to consider if you go this route.
Replace the damper plate, on my boat it was made by SACHS. It has 6 springs, a 5 bolt pattern and 10 tooth spine. The diameter is 6-3/16" to the OD. The bolt circle is ~5 5/8".
Part number on the damper plate is 1866 061 001. Joe had a replacement.
The shift linkage moved from starboard to port, so you will need a different mounting bracket for the linkage. Joe also had this.
If I recall, this tranny is about 1/4" longer. So your shaft will slide back slightly.
Last, it is a tight fit. I had to jack engine all the way up to make room sliding out the old and installing the new.
All in all, it was only about a two hour job. Good luck.
Hey Harrier:
What is a damper plate?
Does it go between the transmission and the engine, or between the transmission and the shaft?
Thanks........I am not feeling as secure about my 30 year old transmission as I was before I started reading this thread!
regards charlie
The damper plate goes between engine and tranny. It is simply a torque transfer device that has springs in between the input and output. The springs absorb the shock of shifting into gear, etc.
With respect to my trans, it was a gradual failure. I almost made it a full season with it temporarily slipping. It started as a lack of torque. Then occasionally it would take several attempts of slamming into forward before it would engage. It was always the worst pulling away from the dock when the fluid was cold. By the time I got out of the marina, I'd be in good shape. Finally one day I backed out of my slip and there was no forward gear. I did a 360 spin in reverse and pulled it back into the slip.
Reverse always worked fine.
Some thing else I learned from the experience....
I used to always leave the trans in neutral when under sail, thinking that was best for sailing performance. Apparently that creates unnecessary wear on things. I now leave it in reverse gear. I do reverse, instead of forward, so that I'm loading up the least used gear.
Hey Harrier:
Thanks for the scoop about the damper plate and description of your trans failure.
I have heard about putting the transmission in reverse while sailing. Some even mark the shaft so that they align the prop vertically behind the keel to minimize drag.
Stephen, please continue to blog about the repair.
regards charlie
I'm working with Joe as well, with Sound Marine. Everything Harrier has posted is the same situation, down to the 1/4 inch.
Installation not complete yet. Joe has been exceptional, his knowledge of the situation and his patience were great.
Stephen
Hey Steve and Harrier:
What was your cost? Will Joe send me the parts? Steve did you do the install yourself?
I have arrived.
I noticed on my trip this week that there was not full power being transmitted to the prop. The boat was not moving as fast as the rpm's indicated. It seemed to work a little better if I backed off the throttle and shifted back into neutral then forward then eased the throttle up.
Checked the fluid. The level was a little high but it had been that way for the past 18 months since I last changed the fluid. The fluid was a little dirty in that you could see some black specks in it. The transmission was not hot after using it for 45 minutes.
guessing about 2 k
1200 transmission
need new cable and bracket
need new damper plate
new motor mounts
That's not including labor. It took them a while. They couldn't get the shaft off, they used lubricant, heat, puller, etc.
I'm pretty handy put this is beyond my ability, and I don't have all the special tools needed. Some of the parts were on back order so it took a while. I got impatient and ordered from universal distributor and should have waited for Joe, would have saved some money. The Universal distributor dealer complete rip off. Wanted 70 bucks for v belt that I got at auto store for 4. Fits perfectly exact same belt.
The new transmission is great. Shifts silky smooth and quiet and I am glad I didn't go with hurth
Stephen
May be too obvious, check the prop for marine growth, may boat is usually a knot slower because of a sloppy bottom and growth on prop.
Stephen
Thanks Stephen.
Just scrubbed most of the bottom and particularly the prop. The transmission is definitely slipping.
Agree with your evaluation of the Universal and Kubota parts filks that I have talked to.
Thanks for the additional information.
regards charlie
Hi Charlie:
I'll check on the Hurt transmition in the consignment shop for you today. I'm going to pass on your "very generous offer" for the one out of the parts boat.
Happy Holidays
Bruce
Thanks Bruce.
Hope that you can understand that I would really hate to trade in one old transmission problem for another. The rebuild cost is pretty steep for a Hurth, as far as I can tell.
I very much appreciate your effort(s) and sage advice.
Then there is the problem of freeing up a couple BU's of cash from the CFO/Admiral.
regards charlie
For those with older C-27's, here is an update on Windrunner and a plan for resolution.
Wes recommended a mechanic, Captain Smith, who works out of McCotters Marina, Washington, NC.
I called Capt Smith, he checked and has a Hurth HBW 50 transmission out of a Catalina. He knew the boat that it came from and claims that it is nearly new. He swapped it out on Catalina's dime when the owner complained of a problem. It turned out that the transmission was not the problem. He hung onto the transmission since it was nearly new, and wants $200 for it. We agreed that I would call him in January and set up a time to bring the boat up to Potters Marina, across from Indian Island, on the north side of the Pamlico, where we will install the transmission, new mounts, and align the engine. Looking forward to taking the boat up to the Pamlico. Hopefully do all this for around 1.5 BU's.
Sounds to easy should I be suspicious? Sincerely hope that the transmission has 60 or so nm left in it.
I will take some pictures and post the results when it gets done.
Charlie - will you have to haul the boat for the work to be done?
Hey Wes:
No, I do not think so.
I think that you can slide the prop shaft back 4-6 inches, until the prop touches the rudder. I have a hose clamp on the prop shaft just to keep it from backing out of the stuffing box should it come loose, again.
However we will see. I promise pictures and a summary blog.
Merry Christmas.
regards charlie
boy has this become a trip down memory lane.
when I bought my first boat an Islander 36 on John's Island, SC; and proceeded up to her new home port in Norfolk, VA ... I eventually had an issue with a Hurth V-drive. And being a tad too young and impatient, had it overhauled by either Metro Machine or Norshipco; I don't recall whom, it was coordinated by the local yard in Little Creek after I pulled the tranny from the boat. What I do remember is the clutch adjustment wasn't right something like two or maybe even three times; I'm pretty sure they thought I was a young whippersnapper pain in the arse. But with a digital tach I kept proving to them that it was producing a variable reduction ratio not a constant ratio, and therefore was slipping.
Once they got it right it was great for 10~15+ years until I swallowed the anchor and married, mortgaged, moved ashore.
Still have that boat, still have that transmission, both needing love and attention.
Also have a used Yanmar transmission in the shop from a raw water cooled engine block that rotted out of a customer's boat. Would have to look at it's data plate in anyone needs it. Tons of Yanmar, Westerbeke, Universal parts if anyone comes up short; mufflers, dripless seals; all the stuff that accumulates when a sailor turns repair tech and keeps going over 15~20 years.
On a different note, the kids are getting two "new-to-them" sailboats for Christmas. Found two RC models on Craigslist for $100 (both, not each) which starting Sunday may become the most utilized vessels in the fleet. I might be in trouble now, because if these count as "boats" since they don't fit in bathtub, that brings the fleet to 10 and there's only 5 kids. Oh, that's ok then. Previously I got away with owning 7 because "there was one for everyone in the family", then got to 8 because we're pushing two together (bad hull & good engine to be paired with good hull & bad engine; someday)...
Merry Christmas to All!
Hey Moonlight:
Thanks for the post.
What sort of digital tach did you use....something like a strobe light?
regards charlie
yes a strobe with a piece of reflective tape.
I don't have one myself, but have been able to borrow one the two times in a 20~25 year ownership and then career that I needed one.
Thanks Moonlight. You got me thinking, a strobe set up not unlike the one used to set timing on cars. Thanks for the scoop.
regards charlie
Well that did not work out as intended, crap it did sound too good to be true anyhow. Called Capt Smith up today to lock on a date next week to install the Hurth Transmission as well as move the boat up to the Pamlico to cut down on mechanics travel time. The Capt'n recalled that the transmission was not as he first thought, rather out of a boat that caught a log in the prop. He said that he did not recommend using that transmission. Wish that he would have told me sooner....
No problem, I had talked with Transmissions Marine Inc. of FL to price a new TMC Twin Disc MG340 in December. I called them back, no problem except they did not have one in stock and it is 16 weeks for delivery from the factory. I asked if they knew of any in stock. They referred me to Sound Diesel and Joe answered the phone.
It took me a couple of minutes and a reference back to this thread to realize that I should have just started at Sound Diesel. Joe does indeed have all the parts at reasonable prices and in stock!
Parts are on order. More later.
regards charlie
Charlie
2 more cents
I would change your motor mounts if it hasn't been done in a while.
Easy to do when everything is off.
Stephen
Hey Stephen: I am with you there, already have them in hand....about $50 each.
Thanks.
regards charlie
Received my stuff today from Sound Diesel and engine mounts from Go2marine.
I have been having problems with the flange on the end of the (bronze) prop shaft, you can see earlier posts when I had a new keyway cut. At Joe's recommendation elected to buy a split flange.
I hope that the new flange and proper engine alignment will quiet the engine down some.
Will post more after installation.
regards charlie
One more flick!
OK! I sailed and very tentatively motored Windrunner up to Potters Marine on the Pamlico. A very peaceful marina, $5/day, and convenient to Capt'n Smith. Other than the $5/day the best deal was being convenient to the mechanic.
What I had Done: 1) replaced motor mounts, 2) replace transmission, 3) replaced drive or thrust plate, 4)replaced prop shaft collar, 5) align the engine and shaft and 6) though not planned replaced the 45° galvanized fitting on the exhaust.
Cost: Parts $1803, Labor $800, misc $225 really close to 3 Boat Units.
Capt'n Smith took one look at the transmission and said that I had the wrong shifter bracket. I ordered the horizontal shifter bracket. Two days later when the bracket arrived, Capt'n Smith was back and pulled the transmission. He then noted that I had the wrong drive plate. He took the transmission with housing to his shop. He sald that he had to grind just a little on the housing to get the transmission to fit. Three days later when the correct drive plate arrived, he installed the transmission, motor mounts, aligned the shaft and adjusted the shifter throw. I spent the rest of the day connecting the exhaust and heat exchanger.
Notes: 1) Replaced old hoses on heat exchanger. 2) The heat exchanger has to be removed from its bracket and lifted up to check the oil and fill the transmission. I have done this not as hard as it sounds about a 15 minute job. 3) I am not sure why the 45° fitting was in the exhaust. I checked out Wes's C-27 and replaced the fitting with hose just like his was plummed. 3) Replaced the pencil zinc in the heat exchanger while it was easy to get to.
Problems: On engine start up, all was well, until shifted into gear. Not noticeable at first in forward there was a distinct whine in reverse. The whine increased with rpm in reverse and was noticeable in forward at higher rpm. Capt'n Smith checked it out at length using a mechanics stethoscope and also checked the shifter adjustment. His opinion was that the sound was comping from some source aft of the transmission. Sound Marine, Joe, wanted a credible mechanic to verify the installation. Capt'n Smith has an overabundance of credibility in the Pamlico area. However, I motored the boat 22nm up to Washington and had another mechanic, who Joe recommended check the installation. Same diagnosis.
Finally: The shift cable is about a foot to long for the new transmission. It has a large loop in it that runs between the fuel tank and water heater. While returning to New Bern I noticed that i could change the nature of the whine by tweaking the shift lever. I suspect that there might be to much friction in the cable to allow the shift detents in the transmission to work properly. I am going to cut a groove in the plywood between the fuel tank and hot water heater to allow for a larger diameter loop in the cable, and eventually order a shorter cable.
Hope that this helps someone!
regards charlie
Some flicks:
New exhaust set up and heat exchanger problem with checking oil in transmission.
More flicks:
Old exhaust and pencil zinc in heat exchanger.
This will be my last post on this thread. (Hopefully !!!)
I just installed a new Edison 6ft clutch cable. Edison sells their cables in 2ft increments. I measured 80in for the cable and ordered a 6ft cable on a prayer, $80 with S&H. Wes says that Hamilton Marine sells in 1 ft increments. Fortunately the Edison cable fit like a glove (for the port shifting transmission). The old cable was 8ft Morse. I do not know if it was original.
The new cable has 90% less drag and allows feeling the transmission indexes for the Fwd, Neutral and Rev positions.
--Edison sells or will give pedestal decals. Needed since shifting is reversed.
--the whine is less noticeable. I am going to attribute much of it to new sounds. Especially since the motor is quieter with new mounts.
Lastly when I rebuilt the pedestal and replaced the binnacle compass I added a cover that I thought would protect the sprocket and cables from water. When I dissembled the pedestal to install the cable the cover had been broken by the shifter lever. There was not enough clearance for Fwd. I do not know if this started or added to the transmission problem by not allowing the transmission to fully engage in Fwd. However it could not have been good.
Time to go sailing.
regards charlie