Well, after a very nice calm season opener with light winds and a smooth running engine, I had a rather 'exciting' day Sunday with gusty winds and the engine stalling below 2000rpm, making for an challenging approach to docking situations.
Of course, to make matters a bit more complicated, is when just as your approaching the doc the motor mount just breaks off in the middle and the engine falls in the water held by the starter wires and fuel lines, which tends to distracts you.
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1891_zpsutkbvzou.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1891_zpsutkbvzou.jpg.html)
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1892_zpsbzbrsnly.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1892_zpsbzbrsnly.jpg.html)
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1890_zps7iwiywod.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1890_zps7iwiywod.jpg.html)
Boat survived without damage and motor recovered, but I suspect the engine will need a bit of work after begin completely submerged for a few minutes.
I'll count myself lucky as this could have been much worse.
Note to others with 10 year old mounts, it might be worthwhile to inspect this important part of your boat. I wouldn't have thought that this could happen.
Ouch! Sorry that happened, but at least you had some luck by not losing it entirely. I had read a couple of reports about those boards breaking, but Gerry Hutchins assured me that was a problem from quite a long time ago (1980's). Not wanting to lose the motor, last winter I built a new board out of marine ply, carbon fiber and plenty of epoxy. At the time I thought...i probably don't need it, but better safe than sorry. After having owned a couple of cranky, PITA 4 strokes I was paranoid about losing the ultra-reliable 2 stroke Yamaha.
However your pics have assured me I did the right thing.
I'm curious if the white appearance was present prior to it breaking. If so, that could be UV degraded the plastic, making it brittle to the point of failure.
If so, others with a similar white appearance might want to replace it.
Do you want my old board to get you by for now?
OMG. Amazing that you were able to recover from this. I will look at mine very carefully next time out, especially since my PO drove all around, including a trip from Texas to Kansas with a 9.9 hp 4 stroke on the mount. I hope you will indulge me with a few answers. What size outboard was on the mount? Do you trailer with the outboard on the mount? I was driving behind a powerboat last summer with a 5 hp or so outboard on the stern in addition to the 250 hp 4 stroke. The 250 was supported by a trailer bar but the 5 was not. Every bump the trailer took would bounce the 5 hp up and down really violently. Of course it was mounted to the transom and not a mount. Good luck. BTW where did you go to buy a new mount. Com Pac? Al
Wow. Sorry to see that. I had my boat (#23), so same age as yours, out today. I'll have to take a close look at the mount tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up.
Do keep us up to date on the repair, I may want to do mine as a preventative measure.
Good luck,
Vectordirector
Hi Al,
That bouncing (shock Load) you describe puts many more times the load on the mount than anything else. I trail my Sun Cat all the time with the motor mounted to the transom motor mount. But and it's a big but I always tie a line to the motor and use a truckers hitch tied to the base of the gallows to pull the slack out of the mount which totally eliminates that bouncing around. The rope itself takes a lot of the load off the mount too.
Tom L.
Brian: I would guess that most of us need to do a preventative maintenance repair on that puppy!! Can't be a tremendous amount of cash and it should beat dropping the motor in the drink, especially a salt water drink. Going to take a long hard look at mine tomorrow. Should be a good day of sailing. Al
As for how I averted disaster: The boat recovery was possible in large part to my quick acting mate (my wife) and someone on shore who recognized the dilemma, but kept focus and surged to action to protect the bow of the boat and gain control and guide me to an open slip. Fortunately I was in reverse when the mount broke and moving at slow velocity forward. My hand was still on the handle of the motor and I never even let go of the motor (it was also attached via starter wires and fuel lines), but I couldn't keep the 90lb motor it above water at such awkward angles from just the handle. With the boat safely into an open slip, my wife helped me pull the engine up onto the boat. Does marrying well count as luck or skill? :^) Mostly luck I think.
Regarding causes:
1) How big is the engine -- too big. A tohatsu 8 with electric start. Somewhere between 90 and 100 lbs. Also 8hp is way to much for the boat, and the prop is too small and high pitched, which is part of why I think I had so much trouble with the throttle.
2) Travel. On longer trips I was trying to take the engine off, but with the electric start this is a real PITA because there is no quick disconnect so it requires disconnecting he battery, taking the engine cover off, unbolting the 2 wires and snaking them out, etc. Then its a bear to move. So, yes I was lazy and typically trailered with the engine on unless more than about 75miles. Also, I know the PO traveled with it on, and don't know before that. But, I suspect the bouncing down roads was a significant fatigue factor. The motor always felt solidly attached, so the actual motion on the mount, although powerful, would likely be small compared to the stretch in any rope. I think it was lot of small motions rather than large ones. In fact, I think a lot of the stress goes to the transom since when I bought the boat the transom had cracks that I professionally repaired (also reported on some other eclipses), so I was always nervous about traveling with the motor on, not so much because of concern for the mount, but that I might end up with more transom cracks (which so far I've been lucky with - the repair is holding).
3) The mount plastic looks very dry and brittle. I noticed this even when I bought the boat, but figured it more of a cosmetic item at the time. It looks like its seen a lot of sun and time.
4) The mount failed at bolt lines. A better design would reinforce with metal rods to strengthen along the horizontal axis.
Regarding solutions:
I'm still looking into it. But...
The ComPac Parts list has something called "Motor Bracket, Eclipse" $258, but I suspect that is the entire bracket, not just the plate. All that is broken is the mount pad.
It looks like you can buy a similar replacement mount for about $50-100 searching google for "outboard motor mount plate," but I need to investigate more on specific sizing, etc. I might consider a hand build
I will likely take the motor to be serviced, if nothing else so that it can be sold, but am now strongly considering replacement with a smaller/lighter unit without the electric start like the SailPro, and then building a mount on the trailer so that I can move the motor off the transom during travel.
Will keep you posted.
Larry.
That's too bad, but your motor should be fine. Best thing to do is to change the oil as soon as possible and start it as soon as possible. May have to clean the carb to get it to start but should be ok. I've dropped several in the drink, all recovered fine. However it is too much motor for that boat.
Regarding the motor removal process, I made a quick disconnect with these. http://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/powerpole/index.aspx
It works great, the motor just has a short piece attached which on the 23 will just fit through the stern hole that it has to go through. Every thing else stays on the boat and attached. I used a PP75 because the motor had 8ga. wire. to the starter.
I purposely recycled a 9.9 electric start four stroke to reduce weight and make the motor easier to remove for towing. I never tow with the motor on. I replaced it with a Sail Pro, one of the best thing I've done to simplify the process of removal. At 59 lbs. I can remove it by myself without having to get on a ladder or in the bed of my pickup.
Did you try Gerry at the factory?
They may be able to sell you the part seperately
Larry,
The sooner you get that motor to the shop the better. Don't try the electric starter because there may be water sucked in while the motor was still running. That could create a hydraulic lock that could be devastating to your motor. Not such a big deal if a motor goes swimming but they do need prompt attention thereafter.
As far as a more suitable motor, I've used a Yamaha 8 hp on a CP19 that I had. I purchased a thrust prop (the kind with the elephant ears) and the rectifier kit. Loved it. I have also used a Tohatsu/Nissan SailPro 6hp, and it left me a little cold. The Yamaha is a little heavier, but the two cylinders are so smooth and quiet, and the thrust prop works great. The Tohatsu was noisy and vibrated a lot. The steering friction can't be tightened enough to prevent the motor from turning sideways at low speed, which is really annoying when steering with the tiller and you don't notice it till the boat won't steer right. However it came standard with a 5 amp rectifier. The SailPro is a cheaper choice, but the Yamaha is so much nicer to use.
In any case, you lived through the experience and learned from it - that's pretty much good seamanship.
Ron
IKM you're right about a rope back up on your mount. After looking at the picture the Eclipse mount is a rigid mount. A rope would not be as effective. BUt you still need to keep the motor from bouncing in its own kick up pivot mount and there is a lot of slop in that assembly.
Most sailboat transom mounts are the parallelogram bar type mount to raise and lower the motor. That permits the motor and mount to bounce significantly when on the road. The rope needs to be nylon so that it has some elasticity. Most of the motors weight is actually being held by the rope so the attachment point for the rope needs to be robust.
Tom L.
Years ago back in my Seapearl days, I managed so submerge my new Tohatsu 3.5 in salt water for hours. (The details of events leading up to said submerging are classified!) Back on shore, I immediately did 2 things: Vowed my next boat would be have a keel which lead me to buying my CP 23. And submerged the entire motor upside down in a barrel fresh water. Next morning I dropped it off at a friends shop. By 2 pm, he had it purring like the kitten it was. It ran perfectly from that day forth when I sold the Pearl.
Since that day, I have refrained from dunking my motors in the drink but that broken mount has me concerned. Darn sure I'll be checking mine this weekend as I'm not fond of repeating what you went through.
Bob23
I had the same problem with my Tohatsu 3.5 on Whispur, my SeaPearl 21. Hit a submerged log in Lake Harris, and broke the engine bracket off. She was tied on with a line, however, and by the time my buddy Bill Fite towed me back across the lake to Hickory Point I had the thing dried out. Fresh gas and new spark plug and she started right up. Fresh water helps though.
Ron
I wonder just how much motor we need on an Eclipse? I bought mine with a 9.9 4 stroke that was a beast. Sold it with my Precision 21 and moved the Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke over to Off the Wind. I have used it in all sorts of conditions including going into a 30 mph blow that popped up on the Gulf last year. At 2/3 throttle I was not moving forward much but I was moving. If the Nissan gave up the ghost, I am not sure what I would buy but I do not think I would go much above 5 hp. My buddy in Florida with a much heavier Precision 23 uses a Mercury (Tahutsu) 5 hp 4 stroke. The P-23 is probably 1000 lbs heavier than the Eclipse. We have been in all sorts of conditions and always had reserve power. So, what is hanging off the stern on your Eclipse?
Hi all,
2005 6hp 4 stroke Suzuki. ~58 pounds. I have one of those Master outboard locks and it makes it impossible to see what's happening around those top bolts. I will remove it and see what's up. My boat had some cracks on the transom when I got her. I repaired them and they haven't returned.
A 100 lb motor would put much more stress on the mount than a 60 lb one would bouncing down the road. I forget my high school physics, but isn't it a geometrically larger force because it acts as a lever? May be part of the problem. I find 6 hp is plenty of power to get the boat to hull speed at 1/2 throttle. In calmish water if I open it up past half it just gets louder and burns more gas, and I don't go any faster. I would say the only reason to go bigger is to get electric start (priceless if you need it).
Good luck,
Vectordirector
Checked my mount today. Seems to be OK. I loosened the motor and slid it side to side to get a look at the top looking for any cracks or whatever. Did not find any, so I guess things are doing well. However, I am going to make the inspection of the motor mounting pad a frequent thing to do.
Sail on all.... Al
There is a lug on the side of most motors to be used to attach a safety cable. That cable should be attached to a substantial fixture on the boat a cleat a stanchion base or a dedicate eye/u-bolt. Good idea to do this little addition. Motor vibration can cause the clamping screws to back off not to mention the broken mount.
Tom L.
I keep a cable around the motor mount and padlocked to the motor. After tightening the clamps I cable tie them together so motor vibration cannot loosen them. My motor looks old and feeble since it has been in water quite a few years. The marina I am at does not allow motors to be up and out of the water because it is tight quarters. Motor runs like a jewel but looks like crap since bottom end sits in the water all summer. Cover is sun worn and faded. Neighbor last year was telling me I needed to clean or replace the motor since it looked so bad. He had a nice new Mercury 5 hp 4 stroke. Next time I came to the marina, he was there moaning that someone took his new motor right off of the mount. Yes, I think I will not clean up my motor or replace it until I need to. LOL
Larry,
Is it possible that you encountered an under water obstacle? You stated that the motor was in reverse at the time and that would have it locked down and unable to kick up, and you were in relatively shallow water near the dock proceeding forward. That would certainly have caused the kind of torque which broke your mount. Considering that it broke at the weak point (along the bolt holes) suggests that it was a twisting force rather than deterioration that caused the failure. If it were deteriorated deeply into the plastic I would think that the outer surface would have looked obviously degraded. Much of the area at the break is covered by the motor and not very exposed to the UV rays. Just a thought.
Ron
Larry,
As a P.S. I went back to review your pictures and the bolts appear to be bent upward, which supports the theory that your motor was forced up from the bottom. Of course knowing if that was the case won't fix the mount but may make you aware of such a danger in the future. Most of what us sailors know, has been from lessons hard learned.
Ron
I took the engine in yesterday - still waiting to hear what the mechanic found.
But I did talk to him about engines and mounts, and did a bit more searching online.
Regarding hitting something - No, I don't think so, but there may have been acute stress. It was _just_ after putting into reverse (ie. the stress of shifting gears). I had the RPM somewhat higher than normal (about 2000rpm-2500) and was revving the engine back up to avoid stalling. I suspect that the gear shift was the straw that broke the camel, and did most of it in, then rev up took the rest to falling off. Hard to say exactly, though. Everything seemed to happen very quickly.
I don't think the bolts are bent up. I'll check more closely, but I think thats just an artifact of the fact that they are free floating above the bottom part. The look strait to gross observation in real life.
The mechanic had not personally seen the plastic boards breaking, but was always suspicious about them, and had heard stories. Also, I found a couple of other reviews on a mount that looks nearly the same as mine. http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--replacement-2-polyethylene-mounting-boards-for-outboard-motor-bracket-for-bracket-assembly-11887999-and-11887981--11888039?green=335548E6-0538-53D9-ABF4-7EFBCE497467&cm_sp=Onsite-Recs-_-MB-_-PDP
These reviews indicate at least 2 others with similar issues. The mechanic indicated that the old fiberglass over wood is much better design because when the plastic goes it goes all at once, where the fiberglass/wood tends to fatigue by getting loose so you have time to detect it. That makes a lot of sense to me, so I think I'm going to build one myself.
Regarding alternative lighter engines, I'm hearing mixed things. Relatively consistently most folks prefer the Yamaha's, but when getting to details, most of these are using a 2 stroke (which isn't made anymore) or 2 cylinder (which gets almost as heavy as what I currently have). Per the mechanic (who might be biased toward Tohatsu's), the major distinction is less the manufacturer, but instead the fact that the newer 4 strokes have to be EPA compliant, and have very tiny jets that make them fussy and clog easily. In addition, ethanol in gas exacerbates the issues, so gas older than 1 month tends to create problems. Per him, 2 cylinders, regardless of mfg, are a bit bigger and smoother, and the 2 strokers are just way better.
Regarding horsepower needed, I found an online calculator (http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm) that suggests that 4 HP is plenty for this boat, and the issue is in the prop (http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm). Basically, I think most props are designed for very different purpose than we need. Even with a very low pitch prop, at high RPM we are just slipping the prop a lot and wasting gas. So I think what I want is the biggest low pitch prop I can find. Unfortunately, thats where I'm stuck with the Yamaha vs Sailpro issue.
In the 60#, single cylinder options, I found a Yamaha at dealer nearby that has a 4hp that looks much less expensive (http://www.clewsboats.com/#!new-outboards/c1m0y), and I sense that its a better engine but then I'd need a better prop, and I'm having trouble finding a high thrust (large dia, low pitch) prop to match this engine. The Sailpro has a 6in pitch, 8.3"dia prop standard, and the 25in shaft for a bit more depth which I like, but some reports that the engine might be more fussy/noisy, and it currently looks to be more expensive. Or, I could try go with a heavier 2 cyl, but then I'd likely keep I have, get a better prop, and try to arrange quick disconnects.
So your opinions/suggestions.
1) Where might I find a large dia/low pitch prop for a newer Yamaha?
2) Any experience with the Yamaha F4/F6 in particular suggest its better than the Sailpro 6HP? Or is it just the name Yamaha, tends to be better 'in general'.
3) How much difference does the 25in shaft make?
4) Know of anybody selling an older 2 stroke Yamaha/Suzuki in the 60# range? (and where can I get a good prop for that?)
Larry, I have an older (2002) Yamaha 4hp on a Suncat, and it is a pretty nice little motor. Runs smooth and quiet, more than enough power for the Suncat.
The new ones are available as a long shaft and there is a 6 amp output rectifier kit available. The exhaust exits above the prop which may help reverse thrust. It weighs slightly less than 62 pounds.
Ron
Hi Larry,
Thank you for this thread and I'm sorry for your troubles. I just checked the mount on my 06 Eclipse and all seems OK. I have an older 6 hp Yamaha 2 stroke motor and it gives plenty of power to our Eclipse at half throttle. The long shaft seems to work well but I have nothing to compare it with. As mentioned in previous posts, I do keep a safety cable on the motor in the event something came loose but I never would have guessed the mount would be the issue.
When traveling I also support the motor with a light ratchet strap up to the stern arch. That works out perfectly on the Eclipse to relieve some of the weight and the bounce while traveling. See the orange strap in the pic.
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t403/eagleye54/Motor%20Strap_zpswkb8c1c9.jpg)
We hope to launch here I Upstate NY by the end of this month. I hope you get Figaro back on the water soon.
-Allen
To be honest, I hate these little 4 stroke motors. Both a 3.5hp Tohatsu on our old 16 and a Nissan 6hp that came on our 19 anyway. Carbs clog too easily, they vibrate like a harley and both fouled spark plugs, likely from not regularly bringing them to operating temperature (only need them to get out of the slip and get the main sail up), which may not be their fault, but still...4 strokes should not be fouling plugs! I became well acquainted with tearing down their carbs, despite one being new and the other I rebuilt the carb before using it as a precautionary measure, and they both still were problematic before the end of one season. Yes, I used fresh gas with sea foam and ethanol affect reducing additives.
Having grown quickly tired of them, I searched around on craigslist and found a nice 1998 Yamaha 8hp 2 stroke, twin cylinder about 3 hours away. We met halfway for me to buy it. $1,000, was never used just scratched a little from handling (yes it was never used, zero carbon on the pistons). It has run flawlessly without any work on it, until last year when it started to take 2-4 pulls to start vs. one. I cleaned the carb, installed a rebuild kit, exhaust ports,intake manifold, reeds and replaced the thermostat and cleaned the water jackets and spark plugs this winter, along with checking timing (fine), and water pump (fine). After readjusting the pilot screw and idle, it purrs like a kitten. It has NEVER stalled or failed to start. If anything, I have been LESS particular about fresh gas with the 2 stroke, but still treated the gas as before. The only thing I did after the end of the season was drain the carb and fuel line and change the lower end oil, along with fogging the cylinders and cleaning the plugs each year. Oh, and little bugs would get into the pee hole, so I sometimes had to use weed wacker line to unclog the pee hole. But that's not the engines fault.
With 100:1 gas:oil ratio, they don't really smoke or stink much, and the reliability is worth the extra minute it takes to measure out the oil.
Since it gets so little use I'm hopeful it will last a long time. Oh, and high trust props are available, and I do use one. It has plenty of torque and I love that it can idle very low in gear to creep up to the dock WITHOUT stalling. It doesn't vibrate much at all either, more of a slight buzz, and it's not nearly as loud as the old 4 strokes. It's 59lbs with long shaft (20").
Basically what I am saying is no 4 strokes for me anymore. Too much trouble for what they are worth, IMO.
Larry,
Sorry to hear of your mount failure. That big motor has been a lot of trouble, no?
If you start looking at new motors, I really like the Honda 4 stroke 5 HP on my Precision 21. It starts easier and vibrates less than my Tohatsu 4 hp on my CP Legacy, and the steering "lock" stays straight ahead on the Honda when I want it to. The Tohatsu's all slip and really can't be tightened to go straight. By the way, the Tohatsu 4, 5 and 6 are all the exact same engines except for the carburetors, so they all weigh the same.
The 2 pluses of Tohatsu's are they are inexpensive, and the reverse shift lever is on the front of the engine where it's easy to get to. Reaching my Honda's shift lever on the side of the motor is a real hassle on my P21 with the stern rail catbird seats. It might be easy to reach on an Eclipse however.
Like EagleEye, when trailering, I also use a ratchet strap from the boom gallows or back rail to take a lot of the weight of the engine and therefore adsorb dynamic bump loads. I do this not only for the adjustable drop mount on the P21 but for the fixed mount on the Legacy. It's essential unless you take the motor off for traveling.
Good Luck,
Mike
In follow up, I took Salty19's advice on both accounts.
A "new" (used) 2stroke 4hp motor (~45lbs) from craigslist on a hand built 'fiberglassed the $#@#$ out over wood' mount.
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1905_zps4f8mkisp.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1905_zps4f8mkisp.jpg.html)
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1903_zpsgho958j0.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1903_zpsgho958j0.jpg.html)
Now for a weekend free to try it out.
For reference also some other pictures of the old mount which under close inspection does show evidence of cracks elsewhere.
I suspect this would be what others should look for.
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1756_zpse8co0qrl.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1756_zpse8co0qrl.jpg.html)
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/lawrencemcknight/IMG_1755_zpsl20kskfb.jpg) (http://s610.photobucket.com/user/lawrencemcknight/media/IMG_1755_zpsl20kskfb.jpg.html)
This may help,
http://www.pure-gas.org/
hopefully you have a station near you. I use sea foam, alleged real gas from my local FS, never drain the carbs or tank. Mower, outboard, motorcycle all start right up in the spring after sitting for five months. Best of luck.
None in NJ. I may have to smuggle some in from out of state.
Bob23..the gas criminal!
You are in luck, Bob. No need to smuggle.
This place looks like it is right in your neighborhood.
Griffin Vehicle Service - SUNOCO
1551 County Rd 532, Chatsworth NJ
Ethanol-free octane ratings: 87 91 93
Salty,
I'm surprised you were fouling plugs, my Tohatsu Sailpro only did that when I had too much oil in the crankcase. But I also had a 10 or 15 minute motor out of the harbor to get the sails up so it did have time to warm up which could have been part of the difference too. A Racor fuel filter was installed inline as well.
They aren't into the single cylinder engines yet but Suzuki keeps shrinking their battery less fuel injection system down for outboards. Smallest at this point is their 9.9 HP engine. Being a sealed system the fuel won't evaporate (like in a carb) so fuel issues should be reduced along with the more precise control with FI it looks to be an interesting engine. I have one on order.
Shawn
http://www.pure-gas.org/
I had problems with my Nissan 5hp 4 stroke until I switched to non ethanol gas. No issues at all now. I do run the carb as dry as possible when I shut down at the end of the day.
Use the site above to find a near by location. I believe small airports use Non ethanol fuel too.
I personally really like the 4 stroke over a 2. To me the motor sips fuel and is far more reliable.
Tom L.
Let me throw in my two cents worth. E-10 is more trouble than it is worth (personal opinion...). When I bought my Eclipse it came with a tank of supposedly E-10. Half way through the summer I could not get my Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke started - no fuel. I filled the internal tank with some gas and it fired right up. Once back in the slip I realized that the bottom pick-up in the tank had kinda melted blocking all fuel flow. Had to buy a new tank, which only sees non-ethanol fuel. Buy it at marinas in Florida in the winter and in Wisconsin during the summer. Even though it is a bit of a PITA, the motor runs better, starts 2nd pull and idles right down. Part of the problem appears to be the fact that some fuels carry more than 10% and of course ethanol loves water which we happen to be sitting in. Sail On.... Al
lkm..I think you made an excellent choice in the motor and the new mount. I would love to get my hands on a 4 or 5hp Yamaha 2 stroke long shaft.
But I do like the 8hp because it has several hi-torque props available, the twin cylinders lets it run very smoothly, and it has tons of power if needed. Reliability has been basically perfect. Yes, it uses more fuel, but that's OK for me as I don't need to motor much at all. The most I might motor is 2 miles if the sky looks like rain coming. Usually only run 4-6 gallons of gas a year, refilling the 3 gallon tank twice with 2 gallons every few months. Usually have left-over at the end of the season. I'm sure better fuel economy would be important for those motoring longer distances or cruising, but you can always carry more fuel whereas rebuilding the ^$()& while on the go would be a major pain in the keel.
I'm definitely not the only one that experienced the fouled spark plug syndrome on the Tohatsu/Nissans (same exact motor with different stickers).
Once upon a time I took vacation down in the Tampa area and hooked up with our forum member Billy, who has since sold his CP19 with Tohatsu sail pro motor, to go for a day sail. Well, we got the boat launched and of course the motor wouldn't start. We sailed anyway as both us were confident we didn't need it--afterall, we are sailors, but in the end the reason for the non-start was a fouled spark plug. I think he does motor longer distances as the channel we needed to traverse was at least a mile. I back out of the slip, motor 200 feet past the no wake marker and raise sail, then turn the engine off.
Either the spark plug issue is more common that it should be, or I'm just cursed! Probably cursed...:)
Regardless, my experience with 4 strokes==unreliable carb clogging, plug fouling, temperamental machines and 2 strokes=zero problems, that's the story and I'm sticking to it! :)
I do use ethanol fuel, and I won't doubt that I might have had better luck using non-ethanol. It is available close to me at another lake with unlimited HP boats at the marina, and I probably should start using it!
Al--Wow, that is wild that the fuel ate through the pickup feed! That right there is giving me motivation to grab some non-ethanol fuel!!
Hey Salty,
I did have plug fouling. It was operator error from laying the motor on the wrong side. There is a right and wrong side. My motor should be laid on the side with the throttle handle down. Seemed wrong to me but after more carefully checking out the manual and there is a sticker on the motor too that says this side up but who looks at that stuff. I now tilt the motor in the bracket then rotate it to the proper side down when sailing. I rotate it to the correct side because if I didn't it may actually accidentally rotate to the other side and I would have fouling issues. It is caused by the crank case oil finding it's way into the carb. But only if it is laying on the gear shift side down.
Tom L.
That was going to be my next question.... was the engine transported properly? If it isn't the oil can get through the PCV into the carb and from there get onto the plug. That is basically what happened when I had a little to much oil in the crankcase. The oil foamed and went up the PCV and fouled out the plug. My mistake, not the engines.
Incorrect transport is a potential problem on all four stroke outboards though some (Yamaha) have additional features to expand the ways they can be transported. I have a little Suzuki 2.5 hp that was transported wrong and it had its crankcase filled with oil to the point of not being able to be turned over. My little 3hp aircooled 2 stroke doesn't care what position it is transported in.
Shawn
Interesting discussion! I can't speak for Billy's issue, but bringing this topic back made me think about the way I handled the outboard, and indeed makes me wonder if there was operator error in the equation?
I knew to lay it down on the throttle handle, and always did transport it and store/work on of them in this manner. I do RTFL despite the manly urges to do otherwise. Actually, I stored it upright and only really remember laying them down while in the back of the SUV on the way to/from the infamous CLR event (which I am bummed that I can't attend this year!!!).
But!!! My boats have sat in slips the entire time I used both of these motors on either boat. Because of the low coaming on the 16, and the stern rail seats and coaming on the 19, while at dock, the motor is titled with the throttle facing upward. Well, not all the way up, but at a North-Easterly direction so to speak. Meaning, around a 45* angle up.
Hmmm...wonder if this contributed to the fouling? You know, I suspect so as they were oily. I would swap them out while on the water (learned to bring the tool and spare plug!), and would smell gas too, but that's probably fairly normal with the choke on. Seems likely that either the short running time or at-slip tilt angle are the culprits.
What throttle angle are you slip rats using while raised at the dock?
Still, dog gone carbs jam up too fast. This makes me think about something else too. Jet sizes. That is, the carburetor jet sizes. A lot of you guys know this, but to help understand what's going in the carburetor, the carb "main" jet is the small metal part within the carb that draws liquid fuel up from the fuel bowl during operation at some point higher RPM's then idle (when opening the throttle beyond idle. Actually to be more specific, there are two jets, the pilot jet for idle and very low speed operation, and the main jet adds more fuel when the throttle is opened up. Where the two engage with the throttle handle is for a deeper discussion, but suffice to say the pilot jet runs the engine at idle and at small throttle openings, and the main jet then draws more fuel as the throttle is opening by way of increased vacuum. The jets draw raw fuel up into their tiny (sometimes hair-width) openings and the fuel atomized as they leave the jets into larger openings with negative pressure (from the piston pulling air through the intake, then opened valve of the throttle).
Anywho..these jets have sizes like 28, 30, 32, 35, 28, 45, 48 for the pilot jet (talking small but high performance motors like outboards) and main jet sizes ranging from?? Guessing 98--200, depending on the motor. The larger the size, the larger the opening. The EPA has forced less emissions and the manufacturers are making these jets smaller for less unspent fuel emissions. Part of the reason by the economy is so good on the 4strokes--their jets are quite a bit smaller then older 4 stroke motors, and certainly smaller than 2-strokes because 2 strokes by design will need almost twice as much fuel (appx).
Makes me wonder if replacing these jets on the 4 stroke to a little larger size will cut own the crap that will clog them. It would take a larger piece of dirt to clog. It would run richer, and not be quite as efficient, but I bet it would help to keep them clean.
But then there's the vibration. Both of these single cylinder 4-stroke engines seems to rattle the whole the boat and were loud compared to a silky smooth 2-stroke twin (at least our Yamaha 8hp). It can't be just me that noticed how much more vibration the 4-strokes have?
Interesting in your thoughts on at-slip rest angle, jet size increases and vibration?
Sorry for the massive thread drift. Maybe I'll put it on track by posting some pics of the wood engine board for those considering replacement of the plastic one. I was kind buried in epoxy, sawdust and paint during the experience, so I don't have many pictures. It's just 9 layers of 4mm marine ply with thickened West Marine Slow cure epoxy covered in carbon fiber sheet, and marine-grade paint, with inlaid elevator bolts. Super strong and will probably outlast me.
Salty,
"Hmmm...wonder if this contributed to the fouling? You know, I suspect so as they were oily."
If they were oily I'd be surprised if this wasn't the issue. When I overfilled my crankcase the plug was oily for sure.
I typically stored mine up with the tiller side down and I did tilt it all the way up.
Connecting that with your point about jet sizes... these engines aren't running very rich by design. Other than running with the choke on I tend to think it would be fairly hard to actually foul the plug from being to rich.
Might have been luck or it may have been the Racor filter and Seafoam I used but I never had a clogged jet in my Sailpro. That is with 4 years of use, never running the carb empty (except winterizing it) and using the same gas all season.
I did get a clogged jet in the Suzuki after I stored it wrong and filled the cylinder with oil.
" It can't be just me that noticed how much more vibration the 4-strokes have?"
I think that is more from single cylinder vs two cylinder with a little bit also 2 vs 4 stroke... esp. around idle. 4hp-6hp 2 strokes were commonly 2 cylinders, they are all singles on four strokes.
On the Sailpro it shook the most at idle but smoothed out while running. A four stroke the has the wrong prop on it will shake more too as the engine is essentially lugging and can't get the RPMs up to develop all its power.
I will have a 2 cylinder 4 stroke in the very near future so I can report on that soon.
Shawn
Added: Watch this Tohatsu 2 stroke single cylinder shake at idle... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX3JdywCB4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX3JdywCB4M)
I store my motor in the slip one click up from straight up and down. We have narrow passageways in the marina and the owner does not allow full tilt on the motor if the boat extends beyond the end of the dock. My Eclipse hangs over the end just a bit, so when I am gone I tilt her up that one click which does not pull the prop out of the water but most of the lower end is out in fresh air and sunshine. Then I turn the motor clockwise putting the handle downward. Last thing I do is pull the fuel line. With a newer unvented tank I found, in hot weather, the pressure build up in the tank would flood the carb. Normally I de-pressurize the tank before connecting the hose to the motor. For the past 2 years I have not used E-10, as I mentioned before, and I believe that the motor runs better, starts on 2 pulls, idles down to nothing. The hassle of finding non-ethanol fuel seems to be worth it. I also have the same plug in for 2 years - something that I was never been able to do. I have owned this Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke for 14 years and used to put a plug in half way through the summer and would have to clean out the jet annually. I have a welders clean out tool set on board. I know the motor is louder and has more vibration than a 2 stroke but not mixing the gas and oil is something that I do not miss. A once a year oil change with synthetic Mobile 1 keeps the motor and me happy. BTW I have replaced all the lines on the motor, the fuel pump, filters (many) and plugs while on E-10, and nothing since changing over. But, of course your mileage may vary.... Al
Well at the end of last season I unplugged the fuel line and let the 5 hp two cycle run dry and stall.
Next day put the boat into six and a half months of winter weather in a metal building rented from the county fair. The O/B continued to hang on it's mount. No big deal. There is no difference 'tween sitting for a week or for a half year.
Together our ford Model 'A' and the boat stored for $350.
Fuel in the boat is always British Petroleum Premium [BP] which has zero ethanol in any percentage to fag out the rubber blatters within the pulse activated fuel pump and/or any other rubber pieces used in the carb. A rebuild kit for my Mercury outboard cost $17 bucks from the local marine [SkiperBuds] parts window. Took about a day to receive the parts.
In the Ford Model 'A' [86 years old] needs any grade and type of fuel because the carb has no rubber parts. Ethanol is fine.
So I put the boat in the water a few weeks ago, raised the mast by my self and had Gary on the safety line tied to the fuller and run through the anchor roller to the cleat on the trailer. The O/B fuel line was attached and the tank's ball was squeezed up for pressure and with full choke plus one pull, a sputter. Than half choke and she started with one more pull. Every year it's the same. Runs fine and strong. Using same fuel from last season. Never took the disconnected fuel tank out of the boat.
No problems.
Most times when the engine won't start it is fuel delivery. You understand that the engine has ...
compression [feel it on the pull]
spark [a sputter]
timing doesn't change [nothing to do here]
so it fuel delivery [two cycles need to be blubbery rich to start]
"Gotta start, says so in the book"
i use no cylinder lube spray, or Stabil, or Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil or other crap and have not changed the spark plug for three seasons. Although I do carry an new plug that is still in the tool pouch.
Now go out and understand and fix your engine and fun.
craig.
Shawn,
I agree with everything you have said.
Makes me wonder if, perhaps, by the act of tilting the motor sideways with tiller handle facing 45* up (while mounted on the boat in the slip), contributed to the fouling. Just you said, these 4 strokes run pretty lean and since they were oily, well, there must have been oil on them causing the issue.
And since I usually would only run the motor of 5-8 minutes or so at a time, they probably were never hot enough to burn off the excess oil. However, on occasion I would motor 15-20 minutes back into coves, to get back before rain hit, or just felt like motoring.
I stored it in the garage standing up and transported it in the SUV correctly, but while sitting at the slip this wasn't exactly the case!
That Racor filter is on my list...has been for a long time, just have not got around to it (famous words of most sailors!).
Thanks for your thoughts.
Skip, do note that your BP station without ethanol is very much an anomaly. I've never seen one that that has made this claim, and I travel A LOT.
Salty,
The Racor I used was the 120R. I just bought another for my new Suzuki DF9.9BTX.
Racor also has a model with a built in priming bulb (445R or 490R) that looks interesting. If you have a newer non-vented fuel tank you might need a fuel demand valve inline if you remove a new style priming bulb.
Shawn
" Skip, do note that your BP station without ethanol is very much an anomaly. I've never seen one that that has made this claim, and I travel A LOT. "
Could be only because Sturgeon bay is a boating town that our two BP's offer the no ethanol premium. There is a sign on the pumps indicating what grades of fuel have no ethanol.
When I worked delivering drugs for Bay Pharmacy the owner of the Pharm also owned both BP gas stations. He since divested himself of them.
craig.
Quote from: Shawn on June 05, 2016, 09:42:03 PM
I will have a 2 cylinder 4 stroke in the very near future so I can report on that soon.
I had a chance to test this out yesterday with my new Suzuki after finally getting the boat launched.
The two cylinder 4 stroke is much smoother than a single cylinder at idle.
Video of the first start of the Suzuki
https://flic.kr/p/JDCQSL
(https://flic.kr/p/JDCQSL)
Low speed running...
https://flic.kr/p/JxErxN
(https://flic.kr/p/JxErxN)
A little below half throttle (GPS said closer to 4.7 knots into a slack tide, I think my knotmeter is binding slightly)
https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H (https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H)
Best part was sailing. I used the electric tilt to get the outboard out of the water and I had previously glassed over the prop shaft tube and removed the strut. With just a working jib up I got up to 5.9 knots in 15-20 knot wind. The lack of drag (and about 250 pound weight loss) makes the boat easier to drive.
https://flic.kr/p/JC8vmf
(https://flic.kr/p/JC8vmf)
Shawn
trying to catch up here, I'm so confused about where this is going.
On the subject of storage angle, my sail pro sits in the slip at the first position up from vertical which I think is about 30 degrees, oriented dead ahead.
Two years into the sail pro experience I have never had even the slightest problem. If left for a month or so it starts on 4-5 pulls, once out restart is generally one pull. Overnight is generally one pull. It runs smoothly at any speed.
My process: the fuel line had never been disconnected from the motor during the time of ownership. The fuel has never been run dry in the motor. I only disconnect the fuel line at the tank to refill it because my marina has requested we take the tanks to the parking lot to refill (floating dock foam, apparently, spills have been a problem). The goal here is to keep the system completely full of fuel and under pressure eliminating the possibility of temperature cycle condensation The motor has never seen anything but non ethanol gasoline. I do put a little Seafoam treatment in there because sometimes the fuel sits longer than I would like and I'm hoping that will slow any phase separation, whatever that is.
Now to catch up.....Shawn what is the two cylinder Suzuki on? did you pull the diesel on your Sabre and replace with an outboard? What HP is it? will it get you to hull speed? Does the trim seem to be ok for sailing with the weight shift?
Brackish,
Yup, Suzuki is on the Sabre. The diesel's high pressure fuel pump died (again) during winter storage. I didn't realize it had gone bad till after I spend 3 hours changing out the impellers on it. (I converted it to fresh water cooling last season after the overheating problems I had in the first season.) By that point I was just tired of all the time spend maintaining the old diesel, the ridiculous contortions to gain access to it and all the money spent on it each season thinking 'this is it.' I could have fixed it yet again but that seemed increasingly crazy.
So I pulled it out. Probably should have done that when it died on me the first time.
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7114/27356876413_494d240d73.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HFr9fZ) (https://flic.kr/p/HFr9fZ)
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7615/27936108146_9f9dbcb95b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JyBRF1) (https://flic.kr/p/JyBRF1)
Once I get that area cleaned up I will have a bunch more storage. Even more so when I pull the 20 gallon tank that is behind that area under the cockpit floor.
The Suzuki is a 9.9hp engine that is the same block as their 20hp outboard. Big 10" x 5 " pitch 4 bladed prop. Boat was only launched 3 days ago so I am still breaking in the Suzuki. So far I think it drives the Sabre better than the Volvo. The Volvo would do about 4 knots at 1600 rpm, 5 knots at 2000rpm and about 5.5 knot WOT and around 2500 rpm. At about half throttle the Suzuki has me doing about 5 knots.
I have only had her sailing on working jib alone at this point. In that situation the boat was driven *very* well. Was almost to hull speed in 15-20 knot wind. The Suzuki was power tilted out of the water and I had removed the old prop and strut and glassed the hull smooth.
Not sure how much the balance is going to be altered yet. I'm going to end up being 200-300 pounds lighter after I get everything diesel related out of the boat. The Volvo with transmission was a little under 400 pounds. Prop shaft, prop and strut were probably another 30. I imagine the muffler, muffler hose, cooling hoses, heat exchanger, 20 gallon fuel tank, fuel filters, tank hoses...etc...etc are another 50 pounds at least and I probably pulled another 15 or 20 pounds of spare parts and diesel specific tools out of the boat already.
The Suzuki is 125 pounds, mount is about 30 and the (2) 1'x2'x1" fiberglass plates I used to reinforce the transom are around 15 pounds each.
I'm probably going to add my heavy chain to the anchor locker which will put about 70 pounds right up front which should help to offset the weight change/shift.
Shawn
sorry in advance for the continued thread drift.
Shawn that is very interesting and could be a great way to repower an older boat larger than the trailer sailor class for a lot less money, both initially and ongoing. You have power tilt, did that come with the motor, not associated with the lift mount in any way? No power lift, just tilt? Do I see a remote steering bracket, is it hooked up to your wheel/tiller?
Wondering if a mini jack plate (6" lift) in combination with the power tilt would eliminate all over the transom weak back issues and still get the motor out of the water for sailing and in the slip? Of course the jack plate would get the installed cost to about $4000 for a 9.9, extra long shaft but that is maybe about half a diesel repower?
Just thinking out loud about the next boat. Since I can't buy a brand spanking new Universal Atomic Four.....:)
As you get some experience please come back and do a review.
Power tilt came with the motor as did electric start, fuel injection, remote controls and a 12a charging system. I will even have instruments when I hook the Suzuki's nmea2000 to my chartplotter. It does have remote steering but right now I just have that fixed dead ahead. Independent steering for the outboard would make the boat much more manuverable compared to the inboard. I will look into that as well as exploring hooking it into the wheel steering.
I don't even need to lift the engine to get it completely out of the water. Just press a button and the power tilt does that for me. Same thing to put it back in the water. If I want to lift it I have a 4:1 pulley setup to make lifting it easier. Lowering it is very easy. Since I got it in the water I haven't touched the mount though, power tilt is all I need.
$4k is probably closer to a 1/3 the cost as a diesel repower. A beta alone (with accessories) is about $10k and there will be additional costs in getting that in and hooked up. And the maintenance requirements of the diesel are still there along with the drag while sailing.
I can tell you already I have more steering in reverse as now I have prop wash over the rudder in reverse. I can no longer blast the bow to starboard using prop wash but hooking up steering to the outboard would give me that back. My kids *love* the outboard, they hated how loud the diesel was when they were down below. No heat or stink from the diesel down below too and the dramatic increase in storage, and dramatic decrease in maintenance needs are another big plus in my book.
The outboard is a little unconventional but I have talked to a few others in similar sized boats that made the swap and they were very pleased. Initial impressions are all positive this far.
Shawn