I've read quite a few posts about adding a furler to a CP-16, and got the general idea that people thought they weren't worth the trouble, especially the homemade style. However, being able to furl a sail seems really cool, so I got an inexpensive furler and spinner, and wanted to try it out. It's a cheap Ronstan dinghy furler from Vela Sailing (https://www.velasailingsupply.com/Ronstan-Above-Deck-Jib-Furler-Height-80mm-p/ronrf76.htm?gclid=Cj0KEQjw6My4BRD4ssKGvYvB-YsBEiQAJYd77bs1v7nnYUfsXfkCJemD64r89Ao-PrmnsZvAe9oVe7YaAjpo8P8HAQ) and a matching swivel (https://www.velasailingsupply.com/Ronstan-Eye-Fork-Swivel-p/ronrf78b.htm) to go with it.
Here's a picture of the setup:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9H5IldX1mKxJRzyH9WY-8YIO4o_FEnenaNBpJbGLWQY5M3s5voDM_kYJ6qgXQn0PvI-quCwheYuvlVlODUvTEOhdUe3XsoQCQ08drAkOKJSwL8HdJ1ATn4KdnMNM0V9ZJ2TcegIlXpGzPrrgYYy5ERHXIx8NKRXgl-2CX2FgHCtf0lMq5_ENrcTnfjW-PA-QYU1p1zb3Cs3BPgYDRpFo3TTLOyytmDSrYNfqwsx3x7ViQEiara-3dnLTx2VGjW49yljNxYLWWxsd9u_72nKyU7iDlHod51WnZ6KaMttWN7vh_SM0WcT3GvV1VmsdfiwMf99ULHw1A-00_EtfgllZth6nubN9jX5FMCn9rz9I4gU4x-aqiGoNpYG2h_qdU4vyp8oRBVbGUh47QLr_H29u-m9i7cASbm-epTSr4r2pzn_iqH9D3IecwkDEH-q4MySTuAKEDjfH9lHpPhrPNGm9reL-ycJpBUADcObQN0ZK7WFT3DcZpTzGRZozQDaY6KDa0CtdWHvDXj-BfxbWwnfVtkS02vsqK8VlwkVb-r-RwpExP8xF6fjiTLPRO8zhN-fmSzjU-w=w557-h989-no)
The downside is that my jib isn't connected to the forestay. Is that really critical? It seems to be working fine, and doesn't interfere with the setup so I should be able to go right back to a normal setup if needed. What do you think? Keep it or wasting my time?
Here is an image in the "furled" state:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jausWY2PXsAKHE1dkJqhEmJy6m9ozEcF-DCWJXDULah2fLY7aSL7oRVC_IZQv6y-Xy1PHgsUYrarZwZLEw4ipeyMCxL4z3KGry918gF6jqNKgTMX6SF6J_CJTXOz6KIB5Ikx17a9htaDg9xv133JMohyY168DkDpEu40Fp0SbajBX3HPWtJgm-aeZ4V4KKRcNUqCFfZLd_sXyGTCklt_rA6qw-mSX7qbmks76fjwTzG2sKosyJbCEnpZWfcZcH5xwQJVrXSc2we4pw7KtG3OmM2U8SK8kaPBOFKEXBy3rHtOjxvdjntaqI6KcuM6fdlX0a5DgxFSTaXbvDy7yBq4G23Lh4WDOaMCDOStUisE-x_Z1rJkzlZo46zOPNKaXujS3SHmD8jI8J1Nd5disJvvmkbqOOZi2vk0MxgAzo_-EFYg0L_RIA323aQCBezCbnJsapL0mlZXljonDc25jVWegQa03NWQMPwsK3Kjh6--0EtxbT-GlJ-EaZjtuqsOsbuaZHLiLz7U9ayPM79UtA3E2QyGIdvh7LzI2hKY-n5fuGsDKMznDYQ4cvH0VWekZ__D_Vtt5g=w557-h989-no)
I'm tempted to say, try it a few times and if it works, it's a wrap.... Seriously, I think how it performs overall is the key. Does the luff sag and distort sail shape in moderate winds? Will the hanks have any negative effect on the luff since they attach to nothing? In any case I would think that keeping the luff as taut as possible would be critical, especially upwind. But if the rig serves your intended purpose, then you've answered your questions.
Jett
TMW,
Thanks for the info & links!
Please keep us posted with performance reports...
. Does it make your life easier?
. Do you notice any downsides?
. Does the fuller itself rub at all - looks like a tight fit.
Thanks again!
Chuck
Is there a head swivel and is this part no. RF76 for $67.96 at Vels Sailing?.......................nies
RF76 was the part number for the furler, which did not include the swivel. I got RF78B (https://www.velasailingsupply.com/Ronstan-Eye-Fork-Swivel-p/ronrf78b.htm) for the swivel, although it didn't quite fit on the sail so I have a stainless steel shackle attaching the swivel to the sail. It may be a few weeks, but I'll report the results once on the water.
Please don't take this as a recommendation from me, I'm still trying to figure a good setup. I'd seen surprisingly little on the web about the Ronstan RF76 jib furler (http://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?ProdNo=RF76), good or bad.
I want to totally understand what your are describing. I too have a CP16 that I store in the water all summer. It would be nice to install a "cheap" furler.
1. you purchased a Ronstan RF76 furler from Vela
2. you purchased a Ronstan eye and fork swivel for the for the head, at the mast.
3. you ran two lines back to the cockpit for furling
4. you hanked your jib to a wire to furl around (How did you determine the length of the wire?)
That's it??? It works?
Gerry
Quote from: Gerry on April 19, 2016, 09:48:43 AM
I want to totally understand what your are describing. I too have a CP16 that I store in the water all summer. It would be nice to install a "cheap" furler.
1. you purchased a Ronstan RF76 furler from Vela
2. you purchased a Ronstan eye and fork swivel for the for the head, at the mast.
3. you ran two lines back to the cockpit for furling
4. you hanked your jib to a wire to furl around (How did you determine the length of the wire?)
That's it??? It works?
Gerry
That's pretty close.
1. I purchased the Ronstan RF76 furler and eye and fork swivel from Vela.
2. I purchased 100' of 3/16" nylon rope, although I'm replacing this with 1/8" paracord (like $8 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Atwood-Rope-550-Pound-Paracord-100-Feet/dp/B006IVX2M8?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00)) because the 1/8" seems to fit better in the drum.
3. I connected the tack of the jib to the furler, and didn't hank the jib to the forestay. I placed the swivel between the jib halyard and the jib head (which needed a shackle because the swivel barely didn't fit the grommet).
4. I raised the jib. Keep in mind that the furler is originally wound when the sail is raised.
5. I ran the furler line back to the cockpit, and plan to install a cleat (testing used one of the jib sheet cleats).
The idea is that either the port sheet, the starboard sheet, or the furler line is working, while the others are lazy. On a starboard tack, the port jib sheet is taught while the starboard sheet and furler line are lazy. On a port tack, the starboard jib sheet is taught, and when the jib is furled, both sheets are lazy while the furler line is working. The sail naturally rolls itself up, without need for a wire to furl around.
Caveat, I have no experience using a furler, so this is blind leading likely more experienced sailors. If you have guidance to make this work, I'm completely open. We'll eventually see how well it holds in higher winds.
Not to be a downer, but I suspect that mounting the furler aft of the forestay will provide undesirable weather helm, reduced power/drive and the inability to point high into the wind.
With that said your new foiled rudder (assuming you faired it nicely to a NACA0012 or 14 shape) will have the opposite effect and should improve these factors.
You might want to play around with forestay mounted vs. furler mounted to "feel" the difference in how the change of sail plan impacts performance, now that you have a foiled rudder.
Experience talking....
I see two issues. First, without the hanks on the forestay, you're going to get a lot of sag, especially as the wind picks up. I don't think it will go to windward very well.
Second, make sure you switch to the 1/8" furling line before you go out in any significant wind. When the wind is blowing strong it takes more turns of the drum to furl the sail, if you don't have enough line on the drum, your going to run out of line before the sail is fully furled. With most systems that creates a big problem, but since your luff is free floating you could always drop the halyard to bring the sail down to the deck. But better to put the small diameter line on there with enough wraps to fully furl.
I have a similar set up that I have been using for the past several years with good success and no loss of upwind performance (It's the Harken high load small boat furler). The biggest difference is that I use a purpose built jib with a seized in luff wire, no forestay, and a vectran core jib halyard. Rigging is quick as all I do is attach the jib to the halyard and drum, raise the mast with one hand and haul on the halyard with the other. This raises my jib and tensions the rig at the same time. The vectran halyard is very low stretch and stronger than the 5/32" wire rigging so no issue there. The furler drum is attached to the stem head tang (where the forestay would otherwise attach) so placement is correct. I get plenty of halyard tension so luff sag is not an issue. This system is very similar to the stock setup on an Ultimate 20 sailboat.
Not being able to reef the jib (as one can with an extrusion type headsail furler) is no issue for me for several reasons. Roller reefed jibs, even with a rope or foam luff flattener are much less efficient for upwind work even when reefed just 10-20%. The 3/4 rig on my '81 CP-16 makes the main the more important sail than the jib is on a mast head rig. For this reason I went with a triple reef main. I can very comfortable sail on 2nd reef and full 135% jib (MkI for me, sail would be about a 110% on a Mk2 or 3 due to the bowsprit J measurement) in 20 kts and in 30 kts on 3rd reef and full jib. On 2nd reef (24% up the luff) there is still a little weather helm, on 3rd reef (36% up the luff) in 30 kts there is a still a slight (perfect amount) of weather helm. I do have a foiled rudder which takes advantage of and generates lift from weather helm that requires less than 5 degrees of rudder angle to maintain a straight course (my setup when properly reefed never requires more than a degree or two of rudder angle to compensate for the weather helm. Definitely different than the photos I have seen of R. Burgress with the tiller up by his chin).
Maritime,
Very interesting. What sailcloth weight in your jib to accommodate the wide range of wind? What diameter jib sheets. I am use hank on jibs of various weights and find the sheets for the 3 ounce sail cloth are too heavy.
Quote from: carry-on on April 21, 2016, 05:03:13 AM
Maritime,
Very interesting. What sailcloth weight in your jib to accommodate the wide range of wind? What diameter jib sheets. I am use hank on jibs of various weights and find the sheets for the 3 ounce sail cloth are too heavy.
At the risk of diverting the topic of this thread, my jib is 6.4 oz dacron, built by Doyle Sails SF, and cut for the status quo Lake Tahoe afternoon winds of 20 kts (surprisingly similar to sailing in SF Bay minus the tidal current). My jib sheets are 7mm Buzzz Line. I prefer the single braid for sheets as they do not hockle like double braid (ie NE Sta-Set). I do not have any light wind (ie 3oz) sails as I rarely have need for them in my local cruising ground.
If you have a light wind 3oz sail, pair it with a lighter weight single braid sheet for better sail shape. For the size sails we are only talking about on a CP-16, it is only about $15 worth of line for sheets so get a set to bend onto each jib.
Hi Guys,
I have pretty much this exact same set up on my Legacy. It works well.
I generally sail alone and wanted to be able to furl and set the jib from the cockpit.
I normally use a jib downhaul and that is fine except in heavier weather when I am left with the jib down but untidy and flapping around, and with strong wind and largish waves, going up on deck to tidy it up is an adventure I can do without.
Actual rigid professionally made roller reeling was too expensive for me and the DIY ones looked like too much mucking around. I felt that the rigid furlers would also complicate raising and lowering the mast. I didn't want to make changes to the actual boat or spend too much money so I decided to use a simple roller furling set-up with the jib set flying unattached to the forestay.
As the original problem was to make jib handling easier in heavy weather I had a new smaller, heavier jib with a wire luff and no hanks made up. Apart from that the set up is the same as above. It works well and balances well with the mainsail reefed, and means that I don't have to go up on deck. And on those rare balmy sailing days, you know, five knot winds, warm sunshine on your shoulders, beer in your hand etc. then I can just use the original Genoa (lapper jib) as usual.
Cheers,
TMW,
What became of your experiment with the RF76 furler?
Thus far I have only land-sailed it, but seems to be okay. If all goes well, it might be in the water on the 29/30, and can do a live check then. I didn't take any new pictures, but it's roughly as described, with an extra cleat for the paracord when furled.
Ordered the RF76 furler and the RF78B swivel from APS. Expect delivery on April 26th.
Can you tell me how much 1/8 inch line to fill the furler spool?
Thanks.
Hope you can launch next weekend.
I cant help with this set up and Mas has hank on headsails. No Mas, our 23 had a CDI FF2 fuller that is designed primarily for the trailer sailer type boat. It worked well. My guess is that the FF1 would be the size for the 16. It has a maximum headstay length of 21 feet i believe. Keep us posted.
Quote from: ChuckD on April 18, 2016, 01:20:40 AM
Please keep us posted with performance reports...
. Does it make your life easier?
. Do you notice any downsides?
. Does the fuller itself rub at all - looks like a tight fit.
After finally sailing I can give actual performance reports. Overall, I'm very happy with the setup, and will keep it. It definitely makes life easier, way simpler to pull the bright green string to roll up the jib than all the work to drop the mainsail. All the action happens while seated in the cockpit
Downsides:
Sometimes it doesn't completely unfurl at the bottom when releasing, which is often because of the furling line (not sure what it's called) gets stuck in the cleat, and have to release it again.
The jib doesn't stay as close to the standing rigging line when unfurled. This is largely not an issue, but sometimes the jib gets close to the side standing rigging lines.
I have, when wind is relatively light, gone forward to hank on the jib, but notice very little performance difference hanked or unhanked. One sail used only the jib (left the mainsail in the cover) and noticed that pointing performance was total crap. That trip had a large reliance on the trolling motor, but was super-easy on sail setup/takedown. Would be nice to furl the mainsail ;)
Paracord seems to work well for the line in the furler, and the extra cleat to tack it down at the edge of the cockpit works great.
Benefits:
Getting the sail ready (unfurling) or taking it down (furling) is super-quick. The initial setup (e.g. after trailoring to launch ramp) is about the same with the furler in place.
The furler seems reliable and steady. There appears to be no problem of potentially coming unfurled. The jib sheets end up wrapped several turns around the rolled up sail.
Take this for what it is, not as nice as a CDI FF1, but also not as expensive.
tmw
Thanks for the report. I recently added a wire luff jib with a RF76 furler. As you reported and as predicted, pointing was not good. The jib I used is about 105%, quite small. The wind on my outing was about 7 or 8 knots and shifting.
At first, I experienced some lee helm, which is not comforting. Once I got better tension on the jib luff, the sailing was good on a reach. Next outing, I will put a trucker's hitch in the halyard so the wire luff is better tensioned.
Considering the weather called for a 150% jib, the results were ok and as you stated, sail dousing is easy and compared to a 150 on deck the visibility is great when using the motor in the channel.
If you search the site, you will find an inexpensive, home made, lazy jack system for the main. I installed the system and it works great on the 16.
Happy sailing