I presently have a Sun Cat. I dry sail and tow to all destinations. I like it that way so I can explore lots of different places from my central Florida home. I have a Ford Edge. The tow rating is 3500#. It very comfortably handles the Sun Cat and the trailer doesn't have brakes.
According to the specifications the H.Cat with trailer would be right at the limit for the Edge.
So my question is do any of you Horizon Cat owners dry sail and tow the boat regularly? If so do you think a Ford Edge would be up to the task? Or what vehicle do you tow with. Most Horizon Cat trailers have brakes. If I were to find one without brakes I would change out one of the axles for one with brakes. So stopping isn't an issue. I towed a 12,000# trailer with an F-250 and with the brakes set up it could stop on a dime.
I am concerned about long hauls, 3 hours, and ramp issues. I never come close to spinning the wheels pulling the S.Cat. I really don't want to get a larger car/truck.
What vehicle do you tow your H. Cat with?
Tom L.
Tom L.
Tom
I believe that besides braking capacity and engine size a cars suspension also determines its towing capacity. Ford may put the same engine into an Explorer and give it a 6000# rating. I have a jeep Liberty with the 3.7L engine and a 5000# capacity. The same engine is a Wrangler and it drops to 1000 and in a Cherokee it jumps to 6200.
A trailer has the capacity to rock and the heavier the load the greater up and down force that's transferred to the rear suspension of the tow vehicle.
I was towing my Horizon Cat (diesel, etc.) with a 1/2 ton Chevy Avalanche (8,000 pound rating) for years, but recently replaced that with a new diesel powered Silverado 2500 HD with a much higher tow rating (almost double the Avalanche). The reason for the upgrade was other bigger trailers, and not the Horizon. That said, I recall weighing the Horizon and trailer several years ago on a certified scale and they came in at something like 4300 pounds combined weight, with about 450 pounds of that on the tongue. I think you're a little beyond what Ford recommends for the Edge, especially for longer trips at higher speeds. If you have to do it, make sure that the trailer has 4 wheel brakes. I think they all came that way, but ??. That's probably your biggest issue. I replaced the trailers 4 wheel drum system with discs about 5 years ago. Drums do not that well after being immersed in salt water a few times. Also note that most states require brakes on all wheels on anything more than 2,000 or 3,000 pounds.
A weight distributing hitch would not be a bad idea too. They can transfer some of the tongue weight to your front axle to equal things out. The 450 pounds on the tongue will see-saw a few hundred pounds off of your front tires and move it to the back. This type of hitch prevents that.
Note that I've never owned a boat where the actual weight was not substantially more than the advertised specs.
I definitely agree with Ron. Don't do it if you are right near the limit of the weight. Also agree that you never really know the real weight of your boat without weighing it. I have the Horizon Day Cat, and it's displacement is listed as the same as the Horizon Cat. The HDC has minimal cabin, and comes standard without an inboard diesel. How can they both be at 2500#?
My boat stay in the water 6 months, and when I haul it out I rent a Uhaul pickup.
Rob
Thanks Ron, I appreciate the input. I did a lot of towing with a Ford F250 diesel so I know it's capability. I also used a Hensley hitch which is a weight distribution hitch and a unique and effective I might add sway control. With the brakes set up I could stop the truck with the 12,000 pound trailer on a dime, well maybe a quarter but the trailer brakes do work well.
Even your Avalanche is overkill for the Horizon...I think. Actually it seems like about the right size tow vehicle. I know you can really never have too big of a tow vehicle but How did the avalanche do when you towed the Horizon? I really don't want to by a separate pick up just for towing and I really like the mid sized SUV for normal use. BTW we live in The Villages, Florida and my second car is a golf car. I pretty sure it's not up to the task! If you have never been here you wouldn't believe it but everything from Home Depot, several Publixs the hospital and everything else between is golf car accessable. We only use the car for trips on high speed roads and some times in the winter on those cold 60 degree days.
Tom L.
Tom -
The 6,000 pound Avalanche did pretty good with the 4500 or so pounds of Horizon and trailer. But I wouldn't call it overkill. Been towing too many years to think any truck is too much for the job. Only problem I ever really had was losing the drum brakes and having to stop 10,000+ pounds with just the truck's brakes. Salt water will eventually destroy any drum brake system. You can't get all of the salt water out of the nearly sealed drum with a fresh water hose, which is not even available at most ramps anyway. The wide open discs and calipers will just about dry by themselves, and mine are stainless with aluminum calipers.
There are a number of factors which influence safety while towing. HP and torque are in there, but not at the top of the list. I'd put brakes, suspension, wheel base and truck weight clearly in front. The torque helps you get up the hill, but what stops you on the way down? Have you ever seen a 10 pound dog going around a turn with a 20 pound tail? I'd also prefer to tow with a weight distributing hitch, especially if the vehicle is a little on the light side as compared to the trailer. Hey, I use this kind of hitch even on the 7,800 pound Silverado HD. A 600 pound tongue weight could get nearly 600 pounds off of the front tires, with all 1200 on the rear. I use a 10,000 pound rated Equal-I-Zer with the boats and a Class IV 14,000 pound rated Eaz-Lift with the heavier car haulers (My other hobby is restoring old cars). Both hitches also have sway control built in.
As I said before, be careful with the Edge, especially on longer trips and higher speeds. Do not do it if the trailer does not have 4 wheel brakes. And a good weight distributing hitch is also just about mandatory in your case. And keep an eye out for big rigs passing you on the Interstates. You will get pushed around a drop. One question - what kind of receiver does the Edge have? Is it a 1 inch, 1.5 inch or 2 inch box? This could make a difference.
And, Rob - there is absolutely no way that any Horizon weighs 2500 pounds. Mine was something like 3300 when you subtracted the trailer weight- which I weighed separately. Maybe ii they built one out of carbon fiber and kelvar.
My edge has a 2" receiver but I think the Edge is just not up to the task. Now I have to think long and hard if I want to upgrade to a Horizon plus a new truck. Not brand new but a truck none the less.
My CP23 Pilot houses weighs in at 1000lbs more and was hauled from Florida to NC, then through every mountaian range heading west all the way to Vancouver BC with my Honda Ridgeline.
While they call the Ridgeline a "truck"....it is unibody construction (no frame) and only has a 3.5 litre V6 (268hp) A "quassi truck" at best.
It was up to the task....and we were both on speaking terms at the end :-)
I would have no doubt your vehicle would tow a Horizon Cat.
How far?
How often?
How many hills?
No recommendations from me but I'll tell my experience: 2005 Eclipse w 6hp OB. Factory says 2200lbs. I think that is probably the bare hull weight. Add rigging, motor, anchor, bow pulpit, stern arch, bimini, rudder, etc, I think it is more like 2800 +- all up. Add trailer (mine is a single axle Performance with surge brakes) at ~600lbs and you get around 3400. My 2007 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (4dr long wheel base) V6 is rated for 3500lbs with the factory tow package with a 2" receiver. (The 1000lb rating that Jeff S posted is for the short wheel base Wrangler.) I towed the boat from Chicago to Punta Gorda, 1400 miles. Slowly. It was bouncy and noisy but I never felt it was out of control at 55mph. I was probably close to 3500lbs but it was fine. The (4dr) Wrangler is rated in Europe to tow 6000 lbs. Odd that since it is the same there as it is here. Lawyers? No one on the Jeep forums seems to know the reason.
Al Santini has a GMC Acadia that he tows his Eclipse with. Seems to be very happy with it.
Not sure about the Horizon Cats but they say 2200 lbs too. Must be bare hull weight. Add accessories to your liking and I think probably close to the same as the Eclipse. How much does that diesel/twin batteries/ filters/etc setup weigh? Gotta be more than a 60lb outboard. The dual axle trailers are heavier as well. I'm not surprised Ron was over 4000lbs with that setup.
I agree, bigger is better, and you have to take into consideration GVWR too so watch the amount of cargo and people onboard the tow vehicle as well. I sold the Jeep because I don't plan on moving the boat anytime soon. It is on a 5000lb lift in my backyard canal. If I was still trailer sailing it a lot up north, I'd put a hitch on my Range Rover. Maybe. Dealer wants $1300 to install one with a 7300lb rating. Crazy, but it is a proprietary hitch made for the Range Rover and there isn't any alternative. So I used the Jeep and sold it down here, it served it's purpose getting me to work during the Chicago blizzards and towing the boat. Nothing new except a low production Italian exotic holds its value better than a Wrangler. The new ones are a lot more civilized than the old CJ's. Still noisy with the soft top though and the off road tires and stiff suspension really suck on the interstate. The Rover is much more comfortable, as it should be for twice the $$. But it is black/black, not so good for Florida so it stays up north with the (ex) wife. I have a BMW 650 convertible now. Not going to tow anything with that!
I would think a 1/2 ton pickup or truck based SUV/full sized van would be in order for a Horizon Cat with a dual axle trailer. I have no experience with Ford/GM/Ram, so I won't get into that can of worms.
Good luck, fair winds,
Vectordirector
Tom,
I agree that if you're just towing in Florida, you'd be fine with your Edge.
Ron
Just remember, advice is something people give you to see if it works...let us know!!
Rob
Thats why advice is "free" :-) ;-)
That said, if it's a V6 model......can't see a problem....
Simple math. Tow rating=3500#. HC with trailer is more than 4400#.
Is it legal? No. Will it tow it? Probably. Will it be a little dangerous? Yes. Will your insurance company not cover you in an accident? No. Will the other drivers insurance company sue you should you cause the accident? Probably. Will they blame you for the accident, even if they were at fault? Maybe.
I wouldn't do it except for very short distances and with the understanding that your taking a lot of risk legally doing so, not to mention straining the heck out of the lighter duty transmission and rear suspension.
I have a CX-9 which is very similar to the Edge (Ford and Mazda co-developed them together). I would not want to pull that much weight, the rear suspension would be absolutely crushed and the transmission will be begging for mercy. But then again I want to tow it across several states now and then so YMMV.
Thanks for the advice. I tow the boat maybe every other week. In Florida (flat...no hills). Some times 15 minutes worst case 3 or 4 hours to my destination. I know of one HC that does not have a trailer. I think I would go for an aluminum trailer with brakes. There is a company in Ocala that will build what ever you need. That would reduce the total load considerably.
Any how I appreciate the feed back. I guess I could try the Edge at first and if that didn't work out go to plan "H". Plan "H" would requier Ron Hoddinott to tow my boat with his ram/cumins diesel truck. No problem there.
Tom L.
Well.. I could do it once in a while! For a free ride on the HC, Tom.
I can get you a seriously good deal on a new RAM 2500 with Cummins Diesel.
Ron
Thanks Ron, but that would be way overkill for our need. I really only want one vehicle that is reasonable on gas for day to day use and then be able to tow a H.C. The best deal on a new cumins would be out of my budget and then it's just plain soo big for everyday. Anyway I haven't even decided on a H.C. That's down the pike I think.
Good Luck on the up and coming testing. Fingers and toes crossed.
Tom. Perhaps some additional information. I own a Com Pac Eclipse that I would think is in the ball park with the HC (unless it has the diesel option) I tow long distance from Elgin, Illinois to Nokomis , Florida and back. I tow with a 2011 GMC Acadia. It has the V-6 and the towing package. I lock out 6th gear when I tow since 5th gear gives me engine speed between 2000 - 3000 rpm at highway speeds. I generally aim for around 60-63 mph max. When towing I get 17 - 18 mpg and 25 without the boat. It is a front wheel drive, not all wheel drive, since AWD lowered the towing capacity by 1000 lbs. It is rated at 5400 lbs. towing capacity. We also have a trailer that is about 5,000 lbs., so the 5400 capacity does the trick. Vehicle is heavy enough so as to not be moved around by the Eclipse. All in all I am very pleased with how it handles the Eclipse and sometimes forget it is back there - not good!!
Al
Thanks Al for your input. The Eclipse and a Horizon with out the inboard may be just about the same weight. Your Car is rated about 1000 pounds higher than the Edge. That's the bad news for me. The good news is I won't be trailing those kind of distances so maybe the Edge would be OK. I don't know at this time. I may just keep looking for a Horizon and if I like the boat give it a shot and upgrade the car later.
Thanks again
Tom L.
Sounds like a plan. For short distance I tow with my GMC Terraine. 2.5 L 4 cylinder engine. It does a great job just does not like going over 50-55. I have always been of the mindset that if you keep engine RPM up you can tow more than the manufacture rates the vehicle at. Of course stopping is an issue. My Eclipse trailer is a single axle, without brakes. I really wish it had brakes and may even convert over next summer. It seems to me I have seen HC with dual axles? Might some of them have brakes installed?
Al
The current HC trailer is 2 axle with brakes. I have towed Kailani short distances with our 2008 4 cyl RAV4 AWD. Has plenty or power/traction for launch/retrieve. With so few hills the tow vehicle really is not stressed that much so that the tow rating is somewhat less critical IMHO.
Thanks Craig, Al, just the kind of response and experience I was hoping for. Right now the Edge tows our 1500# Sun Cat + trailer and gear. We have to be near 2300#. It tows like it's not even there, plenty of highway power, ramp pulling capacity and stopping ability with out brakes. I do lock out overdrive even though it can handle the flat land down here the slightest grade and it will down shift. That will build transmission heat so I keep it locked out of overdrive.
Thanks Again
Tom L.
I wonder if anyone knows why a HC comes with a 2 axle trailer with brakes and an Eclipse comes with a one axle trailer without brakes?? I thought these two fine sailboats were about the same weight. I also thought that any boat/trailer over 2,000 lbs had to have brakes? I do not find the need for them with the Acadia but having them would be a plus. I will bet it is big bucks to convert over to a braking system. Any idea?
Al
Brakes - "I do not find the need for them with the Acadia".
First of all, a diesel HC and trailer actually weigh about 4300 pounds, maybe 150 less if you've got a 10 hp outboard. If the Eclipse is about the same size, then the weight of the boat should be fairly close to the approx 3300 pound HC weight. And, in most states, brakes are required on trailers with over 2,000 pound gvw. The 4 wheel drum brakes failed on my HC trailer about 3 years ago and I had trouble stopping it, even with a 6200 pound Chevy Avalanche in front. Nearly ran a red light in the process. An Acadia would have been in worse shape, maybe 100 feet on the other side of the red light, assuming you avoided the 18 wheeler that came thru while you were crossing.
So, I guess the answer lies in additional weight of the HC. I figured that the two boats were about the same weight (without the diesel option. I looked up the weight requiring brakes and found most States require above 3000 and the Eclipse is obviously not over 3000 even with everything on board. My previous boat was a Precision 21 and it was heavier than my Eclipse and even it did not come from the factory with brakes. I still find it hard to believe that the HC without a diesel is over 3,000 and the Eclipse is listed at 2200. But I guess it is what it is. When I mentioned that I did not feel the need for brakes on my Acadia, I really was not given the choice since the factory did not put brakes on the trailer. I have had panic stops with the Acadia and the Eclipse and was very pleased with the stopping ability. Enough said....
Concerning trailer brakes, every state is different. Minimum weights run from all trailers to 3,000 pounds or more. Same thing applies to how many axles must have brakes. Could be zero, one or all. I suggest that you look at the attached list. Note that if you drive thru any state then you may have to satisfy their requirements as well as your home state. Note that even if you satisfy the law, you may not wind up with a safe tow. As I mentioned previously, I had trouble stopping a two axle Horizon behind a 6,000+ pound Avalanche when the trailer's drum system failed.
http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-brakes/