Hello all, "No Mas" is our CP 23D for jumping aboard the sailing scene for the firs time in 25 years! We were a Compac owner previously, CP16, with no electric or for that matter much of anything! No Mas has real creature comforts and electronics. she has shore power and a charge controller but we intend to sail to many locations in our area for multiple days with no access to electric. She does have a diesel so know that when running it we will charge but we hope to continue the tradition of this boat with only 353 hours on it's 1990 yanmar. We are also considering the wisdom of hauling every winter and thus keeping the batteries topped off becomes undoable with the shore power option. She has a two battery system with charge controller and monitoring panel.
We have used solar panels with much success on our land yacht (Sportsmobile 4x4 van) for many years and it's "moorings" also are no where near electric most of the time, even though it has "shore power" as well for those times we come into civilization. Much has changed in solar and cost since we first set up our van system 20 years ago. Would appreciate being educated by this incredible forum as to your experiences with solar on a craft such as ours. (would love to have it attached to a winter cover as well during the off season, thus movable). Have been doing the on-line thing and found this site to be interesting for our needs: http://gpelectric.com/products/solar-flex-kits-modules
Looking forward to hearing from folks and hopefully being able to help with questions others may have.
No Mas,
I have very minimal electrics aboard, and decided to just get a 12 watt panel. It is square, flexible, etc, got it from Defender. I have it placed on the gas tank cover when I am not at the boat. It keeps the battery topped up for my lights. I put it in the starboard lazerette when I take the boat out. Kind of a minimalist approach.
Someone on here did some kind of major league solar panel project for powering lots more stuff for a lot longer. This could become a real interesting thread.
I fit a 40w panel on top of the sliding hatch. That kept me charged up all the time including using an autopilot, LED lights, pressure water, radio and wind meter. On the hatch mostly kept the panel out of the way compared to most any other install location.
Shawn
So far the wisdom i have gleaned from folks for such small craft as our's is the thin semi-flexible type that can be stowed under a bunk and moved easily from bimini to deck, cover, or rigging! Much to ponder, but really want to be "off the grid" with her when out. Any thought's about multiple locations for such panels!
No Mas,
The small flexible panels are fine for 'trickle' charging when you are just wanting to top off the batteries when the boat is not in use.
In the Journeys, Anchorages, Destinations section there is a recent post called "Update on Abacos trip" where Chris posted pictures that included an interesting shot of a solar panel mounted on a pole on the transom of their C23. That looks like an ideal solution since it is out of the way, does not interfere with sailing, and can be adjusted to always getting direct exposure. He mentions that he had 150 Watts Solar but there must be more that we do not know or can see in the pictures. The 36 cell panel comes up short of being able to produce 150 watts. I've read that you can expect to get an average of 5 hours total output from a solar panel. Example, a 150 Watt panel can produce about 9 amp times 5 for a total of 45 Amp a day. Being able to adjust the angle and rotate a panel to always point directly at the sun greatly increases the total Amps.
Hey Jeff S,
The flexible panels I am looking at and others have suggested are more in the 40-100 watt range. Totally agree on the orientation as a key. We have used a rigid panel for years on our land yacht (Sportsmobile 4x4) that can go on the roof racks (which is fine 90% of the time, or if needed, it is installed so it can be moved with little effort. Just don't want to deal with a large ridged panel on a small craft, especially if it gets a little rough. No where to store it. Our ridged panel on the van is always removed placed into storage with no light hitting it, and it is over 20 years old and producing the same wattage as new. If not needed a thin flexible panel can be shoved under cushions in the cabin. May actually have a small inexpensive trickle charge panel for placing on the winter cover as well since not using the electrics then but wish the batteries to stay charged. HeaveToo has some great ideas on this and has a system that looks like a similar one might fit the bill.
Keep the ideas coming, as knowledge makes for good decision making!
BTW noticed you a relatively new as well. Welcome!
Be aware the flexible panels tend to be larger than rigid panels for the same wattage. Other than on top of a bimini or dodger there really isn't any place to put a decent sized flexible panel where it won't be in the way. You can get a 10w or so on the front hatch (if it is not transparent) but most of the others are too big to not block valuable space. They would also be tough to store out of the way when not in use. A permanent install (either fixed or flexible) is more likely to keep giving you power as it will always be ready to catch to sun.
Only time I removed this panel was to raise/lower the mast at the start/end of the season.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7121/7860730552_54999ee0ef_z.jpg)
Shawn
No Mas, you really need to determine what you want your solar system to do then build accordingly. Things to think about are battery bank size and configuration, panel-s location, amps you want to generate per day, how you are going to use the boat. I wanted my 23d to be completely off grid. I designed my system to never need shore power. I ran a norcold chest type fridge freezer full time, cabin and nav lights, wheel autopilot, charged 2 phones and gps's, pressure water, radio, vhf with GPS full time, 2 fans full time, charged spotlight, etc. for over a month in the bahamas without plugging into shore power. The engine was also started from the house bank as I don't want a separate battery for it. I have a 150 watt panel mounted on a pole on the stern. 2 6v 300amp lifeline agm's mounted in the keel, a Morningstar charge controller and moniter. This along with the 35 amp alternator when motoring takes care of all electrical needs and keeps the battery bank above 70% usually. I only saw 60% on the monitor once and that was while moored in rain and storms for 2 days with no sun and not running the engine. With the battery's low and with the panel in full sun I saw almost 9 amps many times. Usually it was around 6 or 7 amps. However, most of the time by 1-2 in the afternoon the battery's were charged and we were running on solar only. The ability to aim the panel at the sun makes a lot of difference.
The rigid panel is large and a pain to mount and unmount for trailering, but I didn't use a flexible panel on the Bimini because I wanted to be able to sail with it down when not needed. The other thing I have to be careful of is tying up to pilings or tall docks on the port side as the solar panel does hang over somewhat. Like everything else on boats it is a compromise.
-Chris
Those of us with outboards have issues with weight on the transom. Adding rigid panels to the transom is more weight to deal with. Yes, panels don't weight all that much but they do add more weight.
My flexible 100 watt solar panel weighs around 3 pounds. It mounts on the bimini, which is always up when I sail. When I am not at the boat the panel is stored in the boat. I sometimes put up my 5 watt solar panel to trickle charge the batteries when I am gone.
Battery monitors are good, but you have to know how to use them. I will not use a Xantrex battery monitor or Balmar battery charger because of this.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/programming_a_battery_monitor
If I do a battery monitor in the future it will be this one"
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/smart_gauge
"No Mas, you really need to determine what you want your solar system to do then build accordingly. Things to think about are battery bank size and configuration, panel-s location, amps you want to generate per day, how you are going to use the boat. I wanted my 23d to be completely off grid. I designed my system to never need shore power."
Totally agree and wish No Mas to be able to be off grid for as long as i wish. She will be kept in a marina with shore power available when not on boat. My needs are similar to yours and also HeaveToo's (he will cruise for several days) as far as bing off grid. We do have the advantage of our diesel but really don't wish to run it just to charge a battery. Rigid panels are the way to go for efficiency but i definitely am looking for storability. Putting the panel out of the sun when not needed drastically increases it's life span as well. Thinking also on the bimini, foredeck, companionway hatch, even some rigging as possible different areas to capture the most sun with a movable panel.. Clearly a panel that can be pointed is going to be way more efficient. sounds like you have a great setup. This is definitely work in progress and until i get something I am good with, the batteries will come home with me for the winter since she is on the hard and will stay there until spring.
Keep those ideas coming as i constantly am learning and other may benefit from our thread.
Remember that any little bit of shadow has a drastic effect on what you harness.
So I sat anchored in Solomons for 4 days being holed into port with a dastardly south wind blowing 15-20 gusting higher. I didn't feel like beating my brains out so I stayed put (looking back I think that I am just going to have to go for it one of those days as my confidence in the boat is growing).
4 days at anchor. I had my 100 watts of solar plugged in and charging.
During that time I ran the anchor light every night, a 12Volt fan. My stereo, cabin lights at night, and my small inverter (12V plug style for the laptop). When I left Solomons Island after those 4 days I checked my charge controller about mid-day and it was a solid light indicating full. Yep, my bank was at 100 percent. My GPS, Stereo, Autohelm, Etc. was running off of my solar power at that point.
Again the key word is IF, but IF I ever add some kind of refrigeration to the boat I will add a second panel. If I go to a second panel I may elect for a separate charge controller and get another Genasun GV10. If I went to 1 controller then I would go to a Blue Sky solar controller. I wouldn't go away from a MPPT controller.
If money wasn't an object in my solar build and I was going with flexible panels, I would get the Soloban panels. They are supposed to be the best you can buy and the main developer of the tech. Money was an object so I went with a cheaper panel. The panel is only out when the boat is out. I have a smaller 5V trickle charger for dockside power.
I don't regret the housebank upgrade. For about $200 I added the 2 GC2 Duracell 6V batteries with 215 amp hours. I had a few less amp hours on my Catalina 30 and no solar and power was never an issue on that (I did charge of the 30amp alternator).
When I wired everything in I used Marine grade wire and connectors. This is a must. Still, I rewired the boat for a pretty good price.
I don't have any regrets with this upgrade. I like my panel. I am considering integrating velcro holders into my next bimini skin so that I velcro the panel in place instead of tie it into place.
One wish is that I wish I had a stainless steel bimini frame (and dodger frame for that matter). Still, the aluminum frame seems to be holding up fine (I sailed at the end of this season in 25 knot gusts with no issues at all).
Hey HeaveToo,
we will be getting refrigeration sooner (this coming summer) rather than later but it is not just for No Mas. We find ourselves off grid a lot with our land yacht (heading up into West Virginia first week of December) both camping and at festivals and frankly could use the extra refrigeration as the built in fridge is small and only refrigerates but so well if it is really hot. The Engel units will actually freeze items if wished (which is it's intended purpose for the land yacht) and they draw very little power. Have included a link. Not cheap, so that is why we must wait, I dunno, something about buying a sailboat, spending money, yadda yadda!
http://www.engelcoolers.com/acdc
Yup, sure we will be hunkered down if blowing hard, as my skills are 25 years rusty!
No Mas
"Rigid panels are the way to go for efficiency but i definitely am looking for storability. Putting the panel out of the sun when not needed drastically increases it's life span as well."
I'd think a permanently mounted rigid solar panel will outlast any flexible panel that keeps being moved around. The flexing is going to potentially cause wiring failure and an aluminum frame is dramatically more UV resistant than any flexible panel. That 40w Kyocera panel I put on my 23 had a 20 year output warranty on it. Cost is also much less. On my Sabre I put a Renogy 100w panel on the boat and the panel was $149 delivered.
As far as refrigeration the Engels are supposed to be very nice. I have a Dometic CF25. It would *just* fit under the companionway on my 23/3 (lengthwise) with the storage box still in place. Compac has altered that area several times so it may not fit on all 23s. The 40w panel wasn't enough to keep the fridge running indefinitely as I was around a 5 amp/hour deficit per day. With the 100w panel on the Sabre I leave the fridge running all summer.
Shawn
HeaveToo,
"15-20 gusting higher. I didn't feel like beating my brains out so I stayed put (looking back I think that I am just going to have to go for it one of those days as my confidence in the boat is growing)."
If the boat is setup for it the 23 will handle it easily, if not you will be overpowered and fighting hard. On Serenity I sailed many times in 20+ knot with gusts higher. Double reefed main and the 'storm jib' (about 50%) with the vang tight and it was a walk in the park. Two fingers on the tiller and the boat was sailing easy.
Shawn
"As far as refrigeration the Engels are supposed to be very nice. I have a Dometic CF25. It would *just* fit under the companionway on my 23/3 (lengthwise) with the storage box still in place. Compac has altered that area several times so it may not fit on all 23s. The 40w panel wasn't enough to keep the fridge running indefinitely as I was around a 5 amp/hour deficit per day. With the 100w panel on the Sabre I leave the fridge running all summer."
Hey Shawn, is your 23 a Diesel? The diesel option while very nice does loose most of the storage area under the companionway. Am struggling with where it would live. Most likely, but would require always moving if head is used, is under the v berth in front of head. Have a 12v outlet there as well. Guess that's why they are Compac!
yup, found ourselves out in 20kt + winds many years ago on our little CP16 with full main, the boom roller reefing jammed and a working jib. Water was visible through the leeward port lights. My wife never said a word until we were back safe and sound, though a close call with the dock, at which time she announced she would never go again if we had to do that again. Got the reefing fixed that week and bought a 4.5 long shaft Johnson the next week. Still married (36 yrs.) and back into sailing with her blessing.
"is your 23 a Diesel?"
Serenity had a sailpro outboard.
Here is the Dometic under the companionway.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/9213557234_a8ec83df14_z.jpg)
Don't know how far back the diesel is but to fit the Dometic you would need about a foot of depth with about 17" of height. If it does fit I'd suggest adding something to assure it can't slide backwards into your pulleys/belt.
Not sure how well you could fit one of these under the V berth ahead of the head. There isn't all that much depth there. There *might* be enough height to put one inside the V berth right ahead of the bulkhead running fore/aft but I'd think that is tight too. You would also need to enlarge the access panel in the V berth to fit it in. You would also likely want to add some vents in there to let out the heat/humidity that the fridge creates.
Shawn
Thanx Shawn,
No Mas is a diesel. there would be no concern about hitting any engine pulleys or the like as the engine compartment has insulated access panels on both sides (of off quarter berths) and under the companion-way steps. I will measure next time down there but know the engine compartment clearly starts after the teak and holly sole ends. There is still the storage compartment that is above your dometic but not sure how much the depth there has been affected by the engine. That would be a great place for it, though you would have to lift the step panel every time.
I seem to remember there being about 18 inches in height from cabin sole to bottom of v-berth removable cushion. that would be a convenient for galley work location but in the way of most anything else involving the v-berth or head. (like to have the first cushion removed most the time for a convenient place to sit as well under the hatch) The fridge would ruin that option.
Have you been happy with the dometic?
also forgot to ask about 50% storm jib. This a separate jib or just a roller reefed jib down to the 50% amount?
No Mas is set up to be a cutter rigged boat and actually came with two almost brand new hank-on staysails. Guess it was not used much as a cutter rig. Sloop certainly is simpler, no walking the jib through a slot, especially with roller reefing. The staysail, stay is more aft of the jib stay and thus would possibly balance better in a blow, but this is only speculation!
Gets pretty exciting when the wind gets that brisk doesn't it?!
I carry a 150 and a 110. I have furling but a 150 furled down past about 130 isn't that efficient.
When the wind is brisk, and I know that it will be, I put the 110 up. This is a great heavy wind sail and it is easier to shorten sail with it. It is probably efficient to about 90 percent.
Having a cutter rig with a detachable forestay would be nice. Most of the time the forestay is not hooked up but if you think a blow is coming you attach it and hank on the storm sail.
I only have a single reef. I want a second one and may have one added.
As far as balancing the boat out, a partly rolled 110 and a single reef held fine tight to the wind in 20-25 knots. That wasn't bad. What I speak of is the Chesapeake Bay waves that are very short and steep. They can get huge too. If the waves counter the current it is just plain ugly. On my Catalina 30 I had a few waves break on the cabin roof by the mast. It was where the Chesapeake Bay meets the Potomac River. Very scary stuff so I have a lot of respect for that area.
Eventually I want to see how she handles these waves but I think that she will be fine. Still, I have a lot of respect for her.
The Chesapeake is basically a drowned (and still drowning) river system. I used to whitewater paddle much and the dynamics of a river bottom and its banks set up interesting types of waves. That with it's immense watershed of river's current flowing in and an interesting bottom with plenty of fetch and you have, as you have so accurately pointed out, some pretty crazy water. Our 16 was never in such conditions as far as the wave action, though ever bit as high as 3-4ft. on occasion. Too a few times for me to go "oh". She pitched a lot but interestingly didn't pound very much. Just luck I guess. Was, solo on that but finally with motor. (when it would stay in the water)
Well the original intent was solar and this is a good time to put out the question of best way for solar to survive some nasty weather. The group knowledge here is such an asset to us all. Learning so much.
"I will measure next time down there but know the engine compartment clearly starts after the teak and holly sole ends."
As long as that isn't different from non diesels you should have the depth then. The storage box on non diesels fits up against the end of the sole. Be sure to check your width and height too as Compac has changed them numerous times. Serenity was a '92.
My mistake, I thought you were putting the Dometic under the V berth. Didn't realize you meant on top of it. If you do that don't let it sit on the cushions, at least not long term. I had mine on a seat in the Sabre (perfect place tucked on the bulkhead held in place by the folding cabinet) but the humidity it puts out started some mold growing on the cushion it was sitting on over time.
Very happy with the Dometic. It works well and has some nice battery saving features.
"This a separate jib or just a roller reefed jib down to the 50% amount?"
Serenity was all hanked on jibs. I had the 50-60% storm jib (an actual heavy weight storm jib I bought at a consignment shop), a 110, 130 and a 170% drifter.
"Gets pretty exciting when the wind gets that brisk doesn't it?!"
Only with too much sail up. My first season on the 23 I just had the 110 and a blown out main with a single reef point. In that much wind the boat was a handful. Getting the storm jib and a new main with two reef points was a revelation in similar wind conditions. It really was simple to handle. I even took it out a few times with just the storm jib up. I could hand hold the jib sheets and I was still doing 4-5 knots off wind.
Shawn
Hey Shawn, clearly i am not doing a very good job of indicating the v-berth location. We have a marine head, so think on the cabin floor aft of the head, (I think I said in front of the head, which was thinking in reference to being on the head!) The v-berth I assume has the same divisions on all of the 23's so we are talking about under the most aft of the middle removable cushions, the head being under the forward most of the two removable middle cushions. It would be in the way for the head and also precludes having that cushion removed and having comfortable seating with room for heads under the forward hatch.
Lets face it, they are small boats, but fun to figure out how to make em work.
thanx again.
Gunna try to steer back to the solar
I have had such good advice but guess the next step is either bring home the batteries or at least set up a trickle charge for while it is under cover. Just don't wish to compromise a final solution for the sailing solar needs or spend monies that have to be abandoned when the sailing season pane/controlerl set up is installed. HeaveToo, i know you have a trickle panel. Can you get one that simply plugs into a 12v. lighter outlet in cockpit? Add the solar controller and larger panel later and still use the trickle charger? I know this might be possible and safe with such a low watt pane,l 5wattish.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/renogy-100w-flex-panels.175809/
Take a look at that post. There was another one floating around there about the flexible panels causing fires. Search it on that forum as well.
Scary part is that it is about the exact panel that the post is about. It sounds like they will come out with a new panel in 2016 and I will probably try the exchange it since they seem to be doing that.
That is scary, glad I have the rigid Renogy.
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Volts-Monocrystalline-Solar/dp/B009Z6CW7O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1447290787&sr=8-3&keywords=renogy+100w
Build quality on it is very nice and it has been working fine for 2 years now. It is also 36 cells, some others are only 32 cells. That can make a difference in partial shading conditions.
Shawn
Do you have pictures of your solar mount with the rigid panel?
A picture of Serenity's panel install is on the first page. With the Sabre I didn't have to worry about access to an outboard so I built a mount off the rear of the boat.
I bolted two pieces of aluminum bar stock across the bottom of the panel and then bolted a pair of Magma Dual Extended Horizontal Rail mounts to the bar stock. I put several sets of holes in the bar stock so I could adjust how far out the panel hangs out the back. These pictures are with the panel in close to balance it better over the rail. It is still very out of the way like this. By changing holes I can have the forwarded edge of the panel flush with the rail so that it is totally hanging out the back.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/596/22955843325_b984f32b8d_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/615/22956005305_90584752ee_b.jpg)
The Magma mounts can pivot which deals with the curve in the rail. If I wanted to add a second panel I could move this to have one mount on the rear of the rail and the second on the side rail and then put another panel on the other side. Haven't had the need though.
Shawn
yikes, looks like gunna be tougher than first thought. Am prepared to do without something else to get panels and controllers of unquestionable quality. Still same question though is, what can be a short term, over winter solution other than taking batteries out, that can remain the winter solution as I pursue a sailing season solution. (say that fast three times!) Nice install on the 40w panel.
OBTW Shawn, you got a heater on her? Noticed the stainless exhaust on starboard cabin roof.
No Mas...You may look at a rigid 5 watt panel that you can plug into the batteries as a trickle charger. That will maintain the batteries for the winter.
According to what I hear, Renology will come out with a new panel in 2016, You could wait for them to come out.
Again, if you can afford it, a Soloban panel is the way to go. I just can't see spending the $1000 on a 100 watt unit.
As for my panel, it sits in the cabin most of the time. I will keep it until I see what Renology does. If they offer to replace it with a new one I will do that. If not I will keep it and keep using like I have. There have been thousands of panels that work okay so, for a short term solution, that will be fine. Maybe in a few years I will break down and buy a Soloban unit.
Then again, I wonder how much it would cost to have someone fabricate a new stainless bimini frame and put a spot on it for a rigid panel. I would fix the bimini permanently with a rigid panel and leave it for the season if it wasn't too bad. I am sure that the frame will cost over $1000.
There isn't a problem on a boat that money can't fix. That sucks when you are on a budget!
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solbian_solar_panel&page=1
There is the article on the Soloban panels. I would love to have one of these and do this installation on my boat. Then again, if you are fabricating on the frame (especially in my case) then you might as well do the entire frame and do a rigid panel.
This is also a suggested panel, according to one thread. It is a bit more expensive but less than $1000
https://www.ervsolar.com/Gioco-150W-Flexible-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-GSC-150
Here is a Soloban panel: https://www.ervsolar.com/Solbian-125W-Flexible-Solar-Panel-CP125
Funny but the 125 watt panel is cheaper than a 100 watt panel by almost $300.
The prices have come down some. Hopefully with more flexible panel knockoffs and technology getting better the quality panels will get cheaper.
I know that with the Genasun GV10 controller that I have I can go up to a 140 watt panel. Having a little extra might be nice.
Just a thought about the solar topic. I've been thinking over, but yet to do anything about, building a removable hard aft bimini (marine ply laminated with fiberglass) that would sit on the aft rails, aft of the backstay ever so slightly (on a CP19, but same setup on the 23). On the hard bimini could sit a decent size panel or two along with custom brackets that may allow the panels to tilt a bit. This would allow the panels to be 100% out of the way, allows cooling under the panels, would be easily removable, and would have fewer obstructions that would block the sun. As you all know, even small shadows over the panel will considerably reduce output from the whole panel. With an aft setup, the sun blocking would only occur when the sun is directly forward of the bow. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal to rig this with a little creativity.
The aft bimini is attractive to me because I don't like the idea of being trapped in "the canvas cave", unable to see the mainsail or have easy access to the deck, but still want some shade. It could also be an attachment point for a larger cover at anchor, or a cockpit based bimini. Right now I use two large Magna brand umbrellas on the stern rails. They work well, albeit the shading of the cockpit is very dependent upon the sun angle in relationship to the umbrellas. When we move to Florida in a few years I will likely think differently about the partial shade idea but for the Midwest it's enough shade to get by.
Hey Salty Dog, there are so many compromises. We will have shore power for times at dock, got a diesel (but hope to keep the tradition of little use, 356 hrs. 1990 yanmar), wish to keep batteries in place under cover over winter on her trailer, be off the grid for extended blocks for cruising and exploring. I agree on the sailing with a bimini up, can't see the sail very well. Will have to see if we anticipate many ideas of summer trips in the dead of the season, might change our mind as well on it being up underway!
Bottom line, will use well documented quality components even if something else doesn't happen. I would love to fill the needs described above. Learning much here.
Years of cruising on the Chesapeake Bay I will tell you that in the late spring and summer I don't sail without a bimini. Normally my bimini and dodger are up.
I don't have issues getting to the foredeck. It is tricky with the connector in but it is not too bad.
If you want to see the sails through the bimini then have a window placed in the bimini. My last boat had two windows so you could lookup and see the sail. It had velcro pieces to cover the window when you wanted shade there.
"you got a heater on her?"
Yup, a Dickinson solid fuel stove.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8162/7653526652_1ccbc00bb6_z.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5103/5822926424_204c9718b9_z.jpg)
It was very cosy with that going down there.
Shawn
Nice looking set up! Good to know you can find fuel to burn. How long will a fire last you before you restoke?
Heave To, how about a picture of your dodger/bimini? To keep it in thread, I think I might like a bigger solar deal down the "road" and could put it on a bimini, but I have been thinking of a shade/rain cover for the companionway hatch both while sailing and at anchor. I wish the Com-pacs had a pop top hatch cover.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Solar%201_zpsqv5nxiii.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Solar%202_zpsh8i2kt35.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/May%202015%20Cruise/Saga%20Sailing_zpsypz3arrw.jpg) Bimini/Dodger/Solar (can't see solar on bimini)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Solar_zpsc98c4228.jpg) My 5 watt trickle charger on back of boat that I leave up for when I am not on the boat.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Bimini%20with%20solar%20wire%20coming%20down_zpswbvy2vxx.jpg) Here you can see the connector and the wire running down the frame (I use velcro straps to hold it to the bimini frame).
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Bimini%20Dodger%20solar_zpsqmd7fh0h.jpg) Grainy picture but you can see the bimini, dodger, and solar on the boat. You have to look hard at the top of the bimini and you will see the black of the solar panel.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Bimini%20and%20dodger%20pre%20solar_zpsnlmptm1o.jpg) bimini and dodger before solar. Good look at the fit
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/bimini%20and%20dodger%20looking%20forward_zpscqlphndp.jpg) bimini and dodger looking forward
Hey HeaveToo, nice pics. Still would like to put a flexible panel unlike yours just for the stowability of it. Also was thinking about being able to rig one in more than one place for sun. The rigid panels are more efficient but just can't figure where to put one large enough to get No Mas truly off the grid. Has yours been up in nasty weather yet?
Shawn, right next to your heater vent there is a SS gooseneck kinda fitting that has line running into it. What is it's purpose. Related to the solar on the hatch in any way?
That is a wiring gooseneck. Waterproof entry point for wires that doesn't rely on a seal. It is for the wind meter on the mast. It also is a little bit of an o2 entry point near the heater.
Solar wiring is under the panel and then has a coiled cable inside the boat to handle movement of the sliding hatch. I didn't want that outside of the boat as a trip hazard.
Shawn
Thanx Shawn. Gotta assume you are located in a cooler clime with you packing a heater!? Good thought on having a little extra o2 on board with a flame going. Hope we can survive the wait till sailing season. going to the boat for more work in a little bit. Probably going to pull the batteries till i can nail down the solar thing. I like you hatch mount but was thinking i might wish a little more than 40 watts. Still pondering.
Heave, I like that bimini dodger combo. Did you buy them, or were they already there. I was interested in your hard dodger, but maybe it's already gone. I could see a combo like this.
I still have the hard dodger in my shed.
The boat came with the Bimini and Dodger with Connector.
The panels have been up through some Chesapeake Bay Storms, at anchor, and I have sailed in wind gusts over 25 knots with them up. They really do work well. They store well.
If you look into what the Compass Marine Site says then you will see that the Soloban Panel is about as efficient as a rigid panel. The Renology Panels are knockoffs of the Soloban. Soloban is coming down in price too. Still several times more expensive than the other panels.
The one picture with the gray sky and you can tell that it had been raining....I had just had a storm with 30 knots winds, or better, blow through the anchorage.
Speaking of windspeed, I would love to put one those Raymarine wireless wind instrument on the boat but that is pretty expensive stuff. Maybe in a few years after I start running out of other upgrades. LOL
"Speaking of windspeed, I would love to put one those Raymarine wireless wind instrument on the boat but that is pretty expensive stuff."
NASA Marine Instruments has a comparable model for about 1/3 the cost of the Raymarine. I had the wired NASA wind instrument and it was wonderful. They have a wireless version as well. I may eventually put one of them on my Sabre.
Shawn
Holy Crap, that is really reasonable. I want one!!!
How did you wire in the transducer through the mast? Can you make the wire detachable so you can take down the mast and detach the transducer at the base of the mast?
I ran the wire through the mast when it was down. I raised the mast and fed the wire through the wiring gooseneck and ran the bundle of wires into the V berth compartment on starboard. Down there I cut the wire and used a 5 pole terminal block to connect the ends of the wire to each other. At the start/end of the season I would just disconnect the mast side wiring from the terminal block and feed it back out of the boat. That kept the connection in a nice dry place to avoid any chance of corrosion.
The wind instrument was *wonderful* when sailing with the bimini up. The only bummer with the wired wind instrument was that its NEMA output wasn't in a format my tillerpilot could understand. I was going to write some software for hardware I designed to convert it but never got around to it. The more advanced chartplotter I am putting in the Sabre will understand the NASAs output and can do really cool things like VMG to Wind as well as controlling the autopilot to wind.
Shawn
" Gotta assume you are located in a cooler clime with you packing a heater!? "
Sailing in Narragansett Bay. Heater is nice for sleeping on the water and extending the season a bit. I'm putting an Espar in my Sabre.
"I like you hatch mount but was thinking i might wish a little more than 40 watts."
The 40w always there is probably better than a larger panel that isn't always out in the sun. In 4 years I never had to recharge my battery. During daylight I could run the tillerpilot and GPS and not really use anything but solar power. As long as you watch your energy usage 40w will do quite a bit. Serenity had all LED lighting to remove that dramatic drain.
If you wanted to go bigger you could probably put a 60 or 100 w panel lengthwise behind the mast but that would be pretty much always in the way when raising/lowering/reefing the main. Maybe if you were thinking about major power (for a fridge) the 40w on the hatch permanently in place and then a 40 or 50w flexible panel for supplemental charging when at anchor?
Shawn
Well, the end result of not being sure what to do is that you do nothing. Interestingly the battery monitor indicated 12.6 volts on 2 AGM batteries that have-not seen a charge in a month. Not much juice being demanded as it sits on a trailer, but going to yank em as winter closes in. I am pondering many things about solar but it probably makes sense to see how much the diesel will accomplish if used a little. I otta give it some use as 356 hours on a 1990 Yanmar says use me!
The bimini spot is the current leading location. Flexible panel for it's storability (under settee or v berth cushions) is a big plus. There is jus only so much real estate on these little boats. I do see us with a boom tent/tarp/dodger or something over the companionway as that is the standing headroom on her. that would limit the companionway panel's sun.
Another option is a more capable alternator for the diesel if needed. Less time running, more charging. We are not going to be on the hook a lot the first season as we figure our way around these cruising grounds and her power needs. Do know we have plans to be on the hook several days at a time eventually. Want to have her off-grid by then!
Who knows, maybe by then they will have such small high powered panels that i can wear on my wrist and have it wirelessly transmit the power......hmmm...too many sci fi movies.Keep the ideas coming!
Kind of last minute but if anyone was looking for the 100w Renogy hard solar panel that I mentioned earlier, Amazon has them as a lightning deal right now for $115 delivered. Deal will expire in about an hour. My charge controller can handle 20 amps.... decisions decisions.....
Shawn
Hey Shawn, just saw this but thanks for the heads up anyway. Now that there is a chart plotter installed that needed the batteries to be declared functional, I am going to the boat again in next couple weeks to fetch the batteries, plotter, and a few misc. items to bring them home for the winter. The cover that came with her i guess was stored so that it dry rotted. so no cover this year. Too bad. That'll give me some time to consider my next steps for solar. Gotta admit, I have been impressed that the AGM batteries have kept their charge so well with zero charging since October 25. Time to get them topped off and kept that way though.
Know this is a solar thread and wanna keep it that way, but Shawn did i see some pics of your 23's winter cover and frame? Maybe a for sale pic? If so would love to hear your experience with a cover. Hmmm...maybe a new thread!
As another lightning deal Amazon has a 10w panel with charge controller for $32.
http://www.amazon.com/ECO-WORTHY-Polycrystalline-System-Controller-Battery/dp/B00PFG56ZS/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1449108372&sr=8-7&keywords=eco-worthy+solar
That should be pretty decent to keep a battery fully charged over the winter.
Shawn
Thanks, seems to be out of stock with no date posted as to when in stock. Would it be better to leave AGM type batteries on boat with such a charger knowing that only so much charging can happen in the short daylight hours but virtually no drain, or bring them home charge them fully and maybe once a month top off the charge. That works well for our land yacht batteries, as it lives indoors solar can't happen for storage. I usually remember to pull ground if for long blocks of time with no use on the van.
I guess cold weather is tough on electrical needs like starting but probably good for storage? If i bring them home they will have reasonable climate control. Never colder than 55, usually warmer. Regular room temp if i am working out there.
Thanks Shawn
No Mas,
I would go with a trickle charger for the winter. Pretty cheap but it will keep things up: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sunforce-5-Watt-Solar-Battery-Trickle-Charger-50022/202218718
Thanx HeaveToo, looks like a small panel like that doesn't need a controller. Know it will not charge discharged batteries but is intended to keep them charged. Still have to go to boat for a few items, including the new plotter :) so pulling the batteries for the season is no big deal, but do you think they are better off left in place with a solar charge or bring home and keep charged?
I am going to pull the trigger on a controller before I get any panels and size it to handle 100+ watts based on all of the advice tenured here. Still unsure on type and/or placement of panel(s). Love the panels you have recommended but you are correct, pretty pricey.
HeaveToo,
Even with a 5w panel I think you should have a charge controller. A lead acid battery will loose somewhere around 5% a month. Say you have an 80 amp/hour deep cycle that means you loose about 4 amp/hours a month. A 5w panel can put in .33 amp per hour in full sun so you will get between 1-2 amp/hours into the battery per day. With no load and no charge controller you will overcharge the battery which will decrease life. This would be worse with gel or AGM batteries due to the lower self discharge and lower charge voltage.
Shawn
No Mas,
"I am going to pull the trigger on a controller before I get any panels and size it to handle 100+ watts based on all of the advice tenured here. Still unsure on type and/or placement of panel(s)."
I've used SunSaver controllers on Serenity and Chouchou. They are good PWM controllers and reasonably priced. A 10 amp unit (more than enough for a 100w panel) is $50 or just under $60 if you also want low voltage disconnect function. I have my bilge pump wired to the LVD. If the float ever sticks on the LVD will keep that from killing my battery.
Shawn
Thanks Shawn. will check into those. I am going to pull the batteries till I figure out my solar system. Easy enough to keep them in good shape at home. May play with a controller here and a trickle charge panel before I install on boat. You think a 10 amp controller will be enough if i go over 100w panel? Physical size will limit my ultimate choice. Sure appreciate all of the advice and links given here.
I bought my MorningStar Sunsaver controllers from:
https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/Solar-Charge-Controllers?sort=Manufacturer
10amp controller will easily be enough for a 100w panel. The 100w panels put out about 5.2 amps and 5.75a into a short circuit. The Sunsavers are rated for 25% overload so you could likely use a 6amp controller but the 10amp gives you plenty of extra capacity.
Shawn
According to Mainesail, he suggests going with Genasun for smaller Charge Controllers. I have a Genasun GV 10 for my panels. It is supposed to be the most efficient MPPT Charge Controller.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solar_panel
Hmmm...just sitting here in the warmth supplied by the sun in our passive solar home and, surprise surprise, started thinking about solar on a small boat again. Clear hatches can provide a little direct solar gain, but the sailing season is warm anyway. So having fun imagining the placement of different kinds of panels on our little boat. The ideas from you guys are hugely helpful. Pondering two smaller rigid panels off of the sides of the stern rails that can pivot flat against rail or up horizontal. It would also provide some wind and spray break for the cockpit.
Just remember weight. You have a diesel so you don't have as much weight aft but I really watch putting weight in the back of my boat. I am already a little stern heavy so weight matters.
If I could spend some money on my system I would put a new dodger up and have a mount on the frame for one large 125 watt Kyocera solar panel. That would be a good set up.
If you are really serious about this I saw a mount somewhere on line where someone mounted the solar panel to a lifeline (different boat) and they used PVC over the life line cable. They would use a dowel rod to put the panel into horizontal. You may want to look around at that.
Remember that if you are messing at the stern rail you may be messing with valuable real-estate. I board my dingy off of my ladder in the back, I keep my grill on the stern rail, and I access my outboard from there.
I wanted to put my dingy outboard on the stern rail. I don't want the extra weight back there so I leave that outboard home and row.
All good thoughts. A typical 50w square panel is about 24x22 and two would certainly add 10-20 pounds. (though am also considering fabricating a frame, backing panel for a flexible type) I am going to add chain to my ground tackle so they ought to cancel each other out, well thats my fantasy! The goal would be to have them fold flat against lifelines and stern rail on the sides of the cockpit so that they can be secured inboard of rub rail. My hope is to have them act like a solid weather cloth in appearance and to a lessor degree function when stowed. (only 24ish long but every little bit of weather protection helps) Would prefer to only have one but struggling with a good location for one bigger one with minimal shading from boom, sail, mast, etc. that is also not covering the already minimal deck space and not have to depend upon a bimini or dodger up. I do like the location of yours if I am going to have the bimini up.
I know they have commercially available folding brackets for just such applications but most all are for larger boats with more substantial and longer stern rails.
I don't have to deal with a motor back there so hopefully it wold not be too cluttered. No dingy either. Just gunna get feet wet till I get tired of getting feet wet!
Still work in progress, and am going to boat today to remove batteries, plotter, top off diesel to help with no condensation in tank, rig up a small tarp over companionway and put her to sleep for the winter. :(
Most cruising places will require a dingy if you anchor out. Remember, the tides can catch you too and if you anchor in an area in high tide you may be high and dry by the time you get back to the boat.
I tow a rigid fiberglass dingy. My dingy has been towed behind both of my boats and it has over 10 years and hundreds of miles on it. It really doesn't slow you down that much but it is so useful.
If you cut the PVC or stainless steel to the length between the sanchions you could attach the panel to it. Then you could use a dow rod to hold it up when at anchor. It would fold down when you are underway. Just a thought and I have seen this before but I can't find the link or picture.
Hey Heave, sure we will eventually get a dink but for now gunna keep it simple. May tow a sit upon we have that we have used for snorkeling, clamming, etc. to get used to the idea of something back there. Cleaning up the electric connections so as to make a solar add easier. Am leaning toward something on or about the lifelines, stern rails and doing two smaller panels. Going to live with things they are for now but am constantly playing with the idea. The more i hear from others and see installs, the more i refine my thoughts. It's a big investment and i wish it to be an add to how we use the boat and not a subtract.
Looks like it is going to be an interesting CBMWG!
so....it sure is easy to redesign stuff when it just on-line and in your head! Was looking at the panel set up on Chris's Empathy and the pole mount idea does keep it out of the way. If it is not this one it is similar.
http://www.custommarineproducts.com/solar-panel-mounting-systems.html
true but that is an expensive system!!!!! By the time you bought the panel and the other stuff you would have been better off, saved weight aloft, and been more efficient to put a Soloban Panel on your bimini.
My 5w. panel is on a wooden mount that attaches to the stern rail. It does okay but I couldn't imagine a 100w panel back there. It would stretch most of the length of the stern.
]My Son-in-law works for Solarstic here's their 100 watt unit:
http://www.solarstik.com/sites/default/files/a_solar_stiktm_marine_flyer_11045.pdf (http://www.solarstik.com/sites/default/files/a_solar_stiktm_marine_flyer_11045.pdf)
I have a friend with a Solarstick. Great Unit, very good build, very pricey.
For a small boat I can't see adding that much more weight to the transom. The best bang for the buck is a flexible panel mounted on the bimini.
Check out Chris's post under journeys and destinations, Update on Abacos Trip. Scroll down to find pic of the solar set up underway. (actually enjoy the entire post!)
A 150 watt panel is approx. 29lbs. and is 39x39. Not sure what the mount and pole weigh. Know they are pretty sturdy construction, 1.5 SS stuff. Even offer a crane attachment for lifting items up and down from the stern. Maybe if too many beers to use the swim ladder?!
Heave, the same company offers frames for bimini applications. Sure they are pricey too. I am struggling with the bimini mount for only the reason that not sure if we wish the bimini up during the usual season for the bay except at anchor. Know if summer is in the plans that will change! Gunna want shade, fans, misters, ice blocks......:)
The flexible type on a bimini is truly the most out of the way place I can think of.
Ain't it fun to ponder?
One summer on the Chesapeake and you will understand why I preach a bimini. Mine is up when I am out. I put it down when I am done with the trip but it never goes down after I leave the dock. The Chesapeake Bay is so damn hot that any bit of shade helps.
yeah we remember from the CP16 days!
looked up the Solar Stik stuff. Man oh man, super quality stuff it appears but super pricey. Also would be afraid of it just looking too much/big on our little boats.
Just imagine.......big panel with a wind turbine, radar mounted, lifting crane, boat with water to top of transom! :)