Hello from the home of the Nations highest Sailing club (Dillon Yacht Club, ele 9,017ft above sea level). Sailing is new to me and after a lesson from an experienced sailor (Reading Sailing for Dummies several times over) and several times out on my own on a lake know for swirling and changing winds, I am really getting the hang of this.
My thoughts go to loosing the tiller and mounting a wheel at the back of the cockpit. Because the CP16 isn't the largest vessel out there and with four people in the cockpit, the tiller sometimes becomes a problem. I am a fabricator and a Journeyman collision repair tech and have a design that is simple with few moving parts and geared to easily turn the wheel/rudder, but wondering if anyone out there has done this themselves? Would like to see other ideas if possible. Thanks...
Hey,
There is a picture in the CP19 section of the photo gallery of a com-pac 19 with a wheel (#33). I wish there was more information. At one time there was much more info and photos but I don't know where it is. Anyway, it isn't a bad idea at all. I know what you mean about passengers. Think about speed and leverage so you can steer with heavy weather helm, in a hurry etc...
Also, if possible keep in mind if you sell the boat a buyer may take a dim view of a modification if it can't be reversed to stock condition.
Its your boat, enjoy it. Part of the fun of sailing is suiting the boat to your liking.
Give us a report.
maybe someone here remembers the heavily modified CP19 from two years ago. It had a lot of extra teak, and a new skylight hatch, wheel etc...
Ibuildit:
Welcome to the forum. Glad you're enjoying your CP-16. Any of us who have had more than one other adult on our 16's can relate to the space issue with the tiller. If you can build a wheel and make it work, let us know! That could look cool. However, I cannot visualize how you'd make it work. Doesn't mean it can't be done, of course. ;)
One option: cut the tiller (reshape it a little if you want) and add a tiller extention. Racing dingies commonly have these. My old Hobie 16 had a telescoping version. That way, you can be just about anywhere in the cockpit of the boat and still steer the boat. When you are packed in like sardines, you can turn the extension around, out of the way.
Another option: maybe just an addition to the above, is to wedge the aft end of the tiller so that it's lifted slightly in order to clear knees. That would be pretty easy to do, too.
Although the wheel could look cool, IMHO "keep it simple" is a good principle in sailing.
Any other ideas are welcome.
In re-reading my post, I would like to clearify the cutting issue. Remove the tiller from the rudder, cut from that aft end. If you measure carefully, you could cut at the correct angle to achieve the lift mentioned, as well. That way, the forward end of the tiller looks proper.
Thanks for the suggestions! As much as I like the look and feel of the tiller, I also want it gone. I have thought a bit about the ideas you mention, and played around with the tiller while changing tack (like lifting it up in the air while shifting seats)trying to figure a way to get it out of the way and even thoughts of shortening it. Being a fabricator I look forward to the challenge of making this work! You are absolutely correct in keeping it simple, it must also fit the look of the boat and not detract from the simple design of the 16. I don't want a big honking machine thing hanging from the transom and like mgoller suggested that it could be put back to original if needed. Couple of ideas I have is based off of ring and pinion and rack and pinion designs in smaller versions of course. Geared like a mountain/road bicycle. Small gear in front (Or off the steering wheel in this case) and larger gear at the rudder. Steering wheel would be 18 to 20 inches in diameter. I made a prototype wheel to get the size to fit the boat. I believe these key designs will enable the easy use of the wheel and rudder in all conditions. Now to put it all together in a compact way (no pun intended) to look good on the boat. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of this but I might be running out of time for this years testing. Within four to six weeks it will be snowing here in the Colorado Mountains and that will change everything. I did want to mention if mgoller is reading this, I couldn't find the photo of the wheel on the CP-19 (#33) you mentioned. If you could help me out with that I greatly appreciate it.
I too, am fairly new to my cp-16. I do, however, have many years experience operating and repairing power boats. (I know, blasphemy!) I think a simple solution would be to use cable steering, like that which is used on small outboard motorboats. It is a rack and pinion system. The wheel attaches to a short shaft shaft on the steering rack, no extension. The steering rack moves a cable in a housing. The other end of the cable housing is attached to a fixed point, and the moving cable attaches to the outboard motor. In your case it would be attached to a short lever on the rudder stock.
Sorry I don't have any pictures, but try this url for one manufacturer. (I have no affiliation with any marine parts supplier or manufacturer.)
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com
Good luck,
Joe
Joe, I received your brainwaves before your reply! I found the steering system you talk about Tuesday evening. This one is Teleflex Maring rack and pinion system called "The Rack" and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
I like to build and machine things but sometimes it is nice to find something off the shelf and modify it to fit my needs. I have an email into tech support from Teleflex with some technical questions about ratios so hopefully they can answer my questions.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Lee...
Good on you, Lee. You might also ask them about measuring cable length (if that is a cable system, not hydraulic), as that is not always as straightforward as it looks. Remember to make BIG radius curves in the cable.
I was thinking that you could mount the tiller arm facing to the rear and have the cable mounted on the outside of the transom. Gives you a less cluttered cockpit, but trade-off is that it will be easier to damage the system if someone hits you in the stern, might block the boarding ladder or outboard motor mount. Thinking as I type, maybe that would not be such a good way to route the cable.
Joe
Update on progress! I ordered a rotary steering system that Teleflex manufacturers for power boat steering. I talked with tech support from teleflex and that man was awesome with the information. In past experiences with companies anytime I am using their parts for something other then their intended use they shut down on me with the info. Not Teleflex!!! Told him my intentions and he gave me all the info and answers to my questions without my asking. Told me to use a 16" wheel and that would be fine with no negative input effects from the rudder. This size wheel should be perfect at the transom and small to keep out of the way of the boom rigging when running. I fabricated a 16" wheel from 1 1/2" 6063 aluminum that isn't too skinny and fits your hand comforatable with a truckers knob to aid in the quick steering.
Now just waiting for the steering system so I can mill the center of the hub and fab up the rest of the system and test it out. My thoughts are to mount this on the transom at the block mounting area for the boom rigging and the blocks will mount to the top of the steering mounting plates so as not to add any holes that don't already exist. Which leads to my question, does anyone know if the two blocks for the boom rigging is mounted in the exact same area on all CP-16's? Or better said, do they use a drill jig to mount them in production?
Still trying to get this built before the snow flies! We had a dusting of snow at 12,000 feet Saturday so it's getting colder. Stay tuned...
UPDATE: I would like some input as to things I may not be thinking about. It's funny how difficult it is to modify something such as this on such a small vessel but in the 20 years I have been building cars (Street Rods incl) I never had this much difficulty in planning.
You can see what I am up to on my 16 at;
www.designsmithfabrications.com
Then click on the "PROJECT SAILBOAT" link. (It's the only link operational at this time.)
Mounting the wheel on the transom would just be in the way of the boom rigging in all different situations. I am going to mount this helm just about a 1/4 of the way back in the cockpit. I still have access to all the rigging for single hand operation without it being in the way. It leaves room for an adult on both sides in the front section and plenty of cabin access. It also will serve as a hand hold when moving about (instead of the boom when the boat heels over when an adult stands up).
I will mount the compass on top of the helm as well as a switch for the running lights. It has a 16" wheel and the steering system is rotary. It will come out on the port side of the rudder so as not to get in the way of a swim ladder.
That is the scoop for now. Even though this is mounted in the cockpit area it still is creating much more room than when the tiller is sticking out and I kinda like the look!.
Again any imput or thoughts would be appriciated.
Lee...
I like your idea of a wheel. Did you think about building a marine ply box to house the wheel mechanism like you might find on a catboat? Like the Horizon Cat (http://com-pacyachts.com/horizoncat.pdf) setup from Compac?
Also, I noticed you built a nice helm. I've been wanting to build an alumimum boom gallows/traveller like that on the compac legacy (http://www.gisails.com/boatpictures/legacy/296) as a mod for my 1982 CP16. Is that something you could fabricate?
Kevin
Thanks for the URL's Kevin. I am going to enclose the entire helm but with aluminum skins and clear powdercoat the whole thing to stop the oxidation and easier to clean.
I should have the steering wheel finished tomorrow (Wednesday) so I will include those photos on my web site. The whole helm system is really shaping up and the size if fitting my 16 quite well. I was hoping to complete it by Friday after Thanksgiving and test it out on one of the lakes around the Denver area but I don't think this is going to happen.
As far as building a aluminum gallows for you (KPL). Absolutely I can. I do hope to find online and here in Colorado locally some fabrication work on the sailboats. Getting away from cars and switching things around. Just email me privately through this web site and we can talk more.
Lee...
It looks like we both have our emails blocked. Can you email me at klynch@clarkson.edu?
Thanks,
Kevin
Well, It is finally finished. This project came to a halt earlier this year and especially when I bought my Catalina 18. But now I have a buyer for it in Oregon (A legitimate buyer) and had to get it finished. I have new photos on my web site of the completed project if anyone is interested. It can be seen two ways,
To see the whole project (viewed best with widescreen monitor, probably won't be able to view without) go to
www.designsmithfabrications.com and click on the "Project sailboat" link and follow the "Project Helm" link below the boat description.
To see just the finished helm (can be viewed with and without widescreen monitor) go to
http://www.designsmithfabrications.com/project%20helm%20pg%203.htm
Will be testing this out on Tuesday. Suppose to be 98 degrees so this will be a good day. Thanks for looking.
Lee...
Very interesting, I have a CP16. How does it hook up to the rudder?
More pics.
doug142
I will post more pictures in the comming weeks (I am going to San Francisco to visit the inlaws mid-week).
To give some details about this, the mechanical parts are off the shelf Teleflex rotary steering parts with an 11 foot cable that exits out the transom. it runs inside down the port side of the cabin and is completely out of the way. The rest of the componets are hand built including the wheel. It is a very simple system with very little modification to the boat. Only requires a few holes drilled and the rudder slightly modified or "cut" if you will. That is to install it. Fabricating it is a different story. If I were to do it again I would build the helm itself with a "pole" style mount. My goal was to loose the tiller, which sticks out really far and if you have 4 adults in the cockpit, can become a problem or in other words, is in the way.
This still should operate with some weather helm for safety. I should be able to let go of the wheel and the rudder straighten itself some if not completely. The rudder itself has a total of 84 degrees of movement (42 degrees each way of center) which is more movement then any large vessel with helm I checked out before building this setup. I wanted to have as much rudder as I possibly could with only 8.5 inches of movement within the cable without binding or no weather helm. I will know Tuesday if I achieved this when I finally take this out for testing. I will post my findings.
More to come (If any interest). Lee...
To loose the tiller in the cockpit, also consider building a copy of that no-wheel~no tiller steering system that those crazy French have developed for there no-sink 'em sailboats called ETAP's.
It's very strange but it works. Move the 'vertical stick' around on an ETAP at the All Sail Boat show a few years ago. ETAP was not at this year's show. Don't read anything about them anymore. Can't sell a boat in the US? That's OK with me, don't like the French anyway. skip.
Well I tested this new helm today and it went very well. Always a little nerve racking that in theory something should work but real world conditions are sometimes different. I found right away that it worked well. I had this bad habit to turn the opposite direction but lost that feeling quick. Still have the tiller in my mind.
It didn't have as much weather helm that I would have liked to have and the steering is a bit heavier but as time went on today I got used to it. None of it was too much to get used to. It is a very natural feeling steering this and I found that I or my passenger wasn't moving all about the cockpit. It was much more relaxing sitting to the side of the wheel.
This was also my first time using a Ida Sailor foiled rudder. I, just like everyone else am very happy with this rudder. Much quicker response then the crappy flat blade.
Overall my thoughts would be I am happy I did this. Too bad I am selling it. I will be adding this setup to my Catalina this winter. It probably isn't for everyone. I never once had to ask anyone to move or jab them in the back with the tiller. The characteristics are a bit different but the main point of building this was to free up cockpit room for more passenger comfort and still have a boat that is enjoyable to sail and I feel I have accomplished just that.
(See previous posts within this thread for links to photos).
Lee...
Hi IBUILTIT,
I can see why that is your "handle"... beautiful machining work... just beautiful.
A few comments/questions... and since you've sold the boat, I hope you won't mind.
I rather liked the pics of it before you enclosed it... folks might like an extra hand hold to grip while sailing.
Why so far forward? Did it constrict the flow to the cabin? Does it restrict "footroom" in the well.
Responsiveness... Things happen much quicker on a smaller boat as far as timely corrections. I once hear a description comparing the 16 to the 23 (both Clark Mills clone shapes) as the 23 being just like the 16 except in slow motion. Did you find the wheel "quick enough:?
When I have folks across from me too far aft, I lift the tiller over them or ask them to scoot forward... the 16 likes the weight more centered anyway.
I did like the description of the french boat with the vertical tiller... reminiscent the control "stick" on early airplanes.
Very interesting project and as I said before.... beautifully executed.
Enjoy the new boat... I'd like to hear how you'd compare it to your old 16.
Dale
Dale, (Long winded response here)
Thanks for the nice complements! When this project was finished it went very well with the boat. The color I chose helped out. It didn't stick out like a sore thumb. It appeared like it was built that way.
To answer your questions;
I did cover the whole helm but I had planned to add hand holds on the top curved area on both sides. The person I sold it to in Portland wanted it as soon as possible so time constraints made me complete it that way but it would have been been better with the holds.
The steering is very quick. The wheel is only 16" with a knob and it is 1 1/3 turns from center to full lock so it turns very fast. I get a full 84 degrees of movement from the rudder lock to lock which I felt was very impressive if you knew what I had to go through to get that much. Many of the big sailboats that are built with helms that I looked at didn't get that much movement. My goals of doing this was for it to not take up room under the bunks with steering linkage, not to take up any room in the storage area at the back of the cockpit, and get a lot of movement in the rudder. I was able to achieve all that. It turns very fast and tight. The narrow transom made it difficult but thanks to 21 years of car building, Geometry and the CAD system I was able to pull it off. It didn't interfere with the motor mount and on the starboard side you can still mount a swim ladder.
I had originally planned to mount it near the transom but we all know and like you stated the 16 likes to be weighted more centered. So I mounted it a bit forward of center in the cockpit so when single handing it the bow isn't sitting out of the water. It didn't inhibit movement in the cockpit and when it's just one person moving from side to side it flows very naturally. Again moving fore to aft the handholds would have been good to have and in and out of the cabin is the same. The only thing is in front of the helm, only one adult sitting there would be comforatable because I didn't allow for two sets of big feet. Two could sit there but they better like each other touching feet. If I was to build this again I would use a large round tube instead for the steering linkage to pass through so more foot room at the front of the cockpit could be had. If you were to move this back any further I think it wouldn't be weighted properly.
Like I said previously, this isn't for everyone. It is obviously different. With the tiller I would do as you say, have people move up or lift the tiller above them. I just hated doing that. It worked but it just didn't feel natural. Even in my Catalina 18 I found myself doing that so for now I chopped off 8 inches of the tiller and it still is easy to steer with a shortened stick. I don't jab people anymore and can still use my tiller extention. I am still deciding if this winter I am going to build a helm for it or not. This was a lot of fabrication work.
I feel like I am doing the same things as Kevin with Floridaze and Gypsy Soul. I sold my 16 for a larger boat (Catalina 18)and now I am setting my sights on a Catalina 23 (though my Wife sees differently). I can honestly say when I saw my 16 heading down the road I had a few tears. I loved that boat and still miss it. It was fun to sail and easy to get around on the road, but when it comes down to it I wouldn't give up the boat I have now for the 16. The 16 just isn't big enough for 4 to six adults. This Catalina 18 is very stable to walk around, my wife like many others absolutely hated the easy heeling and un-stableness. She will walk around on this new boat, and I find I can single hand this Cat just as easy as the 16. I will never talk down about the 16, but I will say it again, I honestly miss my 16 . I am happy the new owner is taking very good care of her and sails her regularly on the Columbia River. I wish there was a web site like this one for the Catalina's but I still look at this site every day. You guy's have come up with a great thing here and I am glad I was (and still am) a part of it...
HI IBUILDIT,
Enjoy the new boat and I hope you stick around. There's a lot more to this site than the love of a single manufacturer. It's like motorcyclists... they give each other a "wave" as they pass on the highway... regardless of what make they're riding... they're riding! There's a comeraderie here.
One thing I have noticed is that a lot of the 16 owners have "downsized" to this boat from larger, more involved craft. It all has to do with your application. If you've got a group you regularly sail with, you definitely need more space. I usually go out either single handed or with two or three folks. I've taken my wife and daughter to the barrier islands off the Mississippi coast with confidence. That's saying a lot.
I do love the looks of the CP 23, but the 16 is so "low impact". This boat doesn't own me. I really like the fact that I can throw it into the water for the day and then bring it back home again. Anytime, I get the "23 itis", I ask myself "how much time do I actually spend in the cabin?" Then there is the annual hurricane threat here... I like the fact that I can just go down to the garage and "check my mooring lines" only once.
You certainly have a beautiful place to sail, and I'm sure the winters there provide a definite block of indoor project time.
You do great work... that's coming from a die hard "project boy"... but that's all part of the fun of "messing with boats".
Have Fun
Dale
Dale,
You are so right about the 16 being "low impact". My Catalina is still pretty simple to set up but nothing like the 16. Every thing is double and twice as tall. I miss that with the 16! If it was just me sailing or with a couple of friends, I would have never sold that 16. That boat was just pure fun and simple. I always compared the size to a two man tent. You could overnight in it but it is like a two man tent. Backpackers will know what this means.
I truly appreciate your complements Dale. I have many times and still do look at the gallery and see the things you have done to your 16. All practical, clean, simple, and well executed!!! I urge everyone new or those who haven't seen your pictures to check them out. I, myself was checking out your cockpit cushions. All of us were out for 12 hours Saturday and our bums are sore. I reference back to your boat a lot. Your complements are truly respected.
I am definitely sticking around here. It is interesting and I still learn new things from others. I like to add my experiences and expertise on some subjects. I have a lot of professional experience with glass work and like to help people out so they are not so intimidated by glass work. This is an excellent site and we should feel lucky to share with each other!
Summer not over but the winters here are very good for upgrades and projects. I already have a list of them to do.
Lee...