As I have posted previously I am getting a Horizon Day Cat soon....once the snow is gone up here in the cold north.
I am 99% sure that I am going to get a Torqeedo 1003 outboard, but I still wondering if I should get a conventional gas or maybe a propane outboard (Lehr).
I was on Sailnet, and was amazed at all the complaints about new 4 stroke outboards. There are a lot of complaints about carburetor problems and issues with the ethanol gas.
Where I live you can't get non-ethanol gas.
About 15 years ago I had a 26' sailboat with a 4hp 4 stroke Yamaha and had absolutely no problems with it for 5 years.
Since I daysail, I don't need a really long range, and I think the Torqeedo may be OK, but it is only equivalent to about a 4hp or slightly less engine.
Are people really having lots of problems with their newer 4 stroke conventional outboards?
Rob
Rob,
In the years I had a Tohatsu Sailpro 6hp I had only one problem with it and I caused it. I overfilled the crankcase slightly which causes the oil to foam and that gets up the PCV and fouls the plug. Other than that I had no carb/fuel related issues at all. Started easily (almost always second pull) and ran great. I did have a Racor fuel/water/filter installed inline though which may have helped somewhat too. I added that a year or two after I bought the Tohatsu.
Shawn
I've been using my Nissan Sail Pro (same as Tohatsu) for two years with zero problems. I do, however use non ethanol gas, never ever run it dry or disconnect the fuel line. Start it at least once a month, usually more often.
I have the Tohatsu; I use non-ethanol gas. BTW, ethanol here in NC at least, is going to 15%, making it even worse. If you can't find a non-ethanol gas, I'd stick with the other choices.
I have a Nissan 5hp 4 stroke. When I bought my new for me 2001 Sun Cat the previous owner had let the boat/motor sit for I don't know how Long. Anyhow the motor would not run correct. Luckily I took it to a very smart and fair Mechanic. He could have told me anything but he told me the truth. These motors have very tiny jets in the carb. They don't like dirt and they don't like ethanol. He simply took the carb completely apart cleaned the jets and just as important the float bowl. It has run great ever since. I had similar problems with a Honda 2000i generator.
He told me that the ethanol in the gas evaporates in the jets and the float bowl leaving behind carb plugging residue. He advised me to use non ethanol gas and to run the engine dry after use. Simply disconnect the fuel line and let it run till it quits. Easy peasy. Haven't had a lick of trouble since.
These engines are fuel misers and that is part of the problem. Gas last too long and the ethanol gas is the culprit. I use my boat a lot both winter and summer so I run a reasonable amount of fuel but I do not fill up the six gallon tank because it lasts too long. It is great when we make a long trip however.
I thought it would be hard to find ethanol free gas. It is not there is a web site dedicated to listing the stations/marinas that have ethanol free gas. There are a lot of stations. I have since started buying ethanol free gas for my lawn mower and edgers etc and for the Golf cart. All run much better with the change. No additives.
The web site is pure-gas.org It lists all stations the pure is not the brand name Pure. Calif. as always is behind the rest of us. They only listed 19 stations in the whole state while Florida had nearly 600.
I personally wouldn't want to lug a big battery nor be limited to minimal run time. But that's me. Actually a battery driven motor just wouldn't work for the mini cruises we do.
Tom L.
rbh1515,
Love my Yamaha 4 HP 4-stroke. Always use non-ethanol gas AND Stabilizer. Only fill my external tank about 1/3 to 1/2 full and add fresh non-ethanol fuel when necessary.
capt_nemo
there are a lot of bad experiences with ethanol and I can add one more. When I bought my boat in April, the PO had always used ethanol fuel and had stored the boat all winter with 1/2 tank of the fuel. Early on I experienced problems with my trusty Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke and finally it would not run. Turned out the ethanol had eaten away the pick-up tube in the tank. I wound up replacing the tank and lines. In Illinois, it is virtually impossible to find non ethanol fuel, since we grow the corn to make this crap. Years ago I started a series of preemptive things to do that have worked. 1. I never have less than 1/2 tank of fuel. 2. the fuel is treated with ethanol specific Stabil. 3. I never store the fuel beyond 6 weeks. I will sometimes dump the stored fuel in my car and re-fill the boat tank. 4 When I get back into the slip, I disconnect the fuel line at the motor to prevent pressurized fuel from flooding out the carb. 5. I replace the filter each year. This has virtually eliminated motor issues. I have taken the carb apart and cleaned the jet and was amazed at how small it really is - it is no wonder that it gets plugged so easily. I do not run the motor dry each time but will do it if I will not be using Off The Wind for a period of 2 weeks. I sail a few times a week so the motor never has sufficient time for the fuel to evaporate in the carb. Now that I am in Florida for the winter I am only using gas.... and the motor loves it. I think my take on the issue is an electric is way more money than a comparable hp 4 stroke. I know guys that have them and love them so it really comes down to personal preference. By the way I do not have electricity available at the slip so charging would be an issue for me. I guess if the batteries can be charged easily and the $$ is not an issue, a toquedo might be good. Anyone looked at the propane fueled motors? I am interested in them from a convenience standpoint but know of no one who has one.
i have had my catalina for only one season and have not had any problems with my 4 stroke mercury 4 horse. i lay it on its side in the bed of my truck when trailering the boat and use stabil in the gas. i havent had any problems with ethanol gas and always buy the cheapest. the book says to only use the choke on the first or second pull or the motor will flood. following that advice it has always started on the second pull. i then let it warm up a bit before leaving the dock. when the sailing day is done, it always starts on the first pull without the choke. at years end i put the motor on an engine stand and poor the remainder of the fuel in my tractor.. i have to say that with all the bad press these motors get, i wasnt happy that a merc came with the boat. it only had about 6 hours on it so i just hoped for the best. given the choice i would have bought a 2 stroke. simpler-less parts. but time will tell. i seriously doubt that the manufacturers of these motors havent considered problems with ethanol gas. the cars we buy run fine on it but they are fuel injected and computer controlled. if i ever do have big problems with the merc i will go back to a two stroke.
Quote from: alsantini on February 23, 2015, 09:03:06 AM
... I think my take on the issue is an electric is way more money than a comparable hp 4 stroke. I know guys that have them and love them so it really comes down to personal preference. By the way I do not have electricity available at the slip so charging would be an issue for me. I guess if the batteries can be charged easily and the $$ is not an issue, a toquedo might be good....
Yes, the Torqeedo is a little less than double the price of a 4-5hp gas engine. But, there is no yearly maintenance. The model I am looking at is the 1003, which has a battery that attaches to the top of the engine. It can also be detached from the engine and hooked to the engine by a cable. Because the battery detaches, you just take it home and charge it. To fully charge from zero takes about 11 hours I think, but the engine will soon come with a quicker charger. The battery only weighs about 10#s, and the engine with battery only weighs about 30 pounds.
Rob
RBH1515,
The short and sweet answer for me is no troubles from the time I bought my Honda 2HP 4 stroke five years ago. I usually switch the fuel supply to off and run the carburetor dry at the end of each sail. I drain the tank if the motor will be sitting for a long time. I pick up a fresh gallon of gas often. I put the unused gas in the car or lawnmower each week and start out sailing again with a fresh gallon of gas.
Congratulations on the new boat and good sailing,
Rich
Thanks TomL for the info on pure-gas.org website. Find that I have 3 marinas within a mile of my home that will be selling the ethanol free . I plan to feed the Tohatsu 3.5 h.p. this coming season with the ethanol free. I only have a total run time of less than three hours on it since purchasing it new last spring. In the fall I run it out dry and emptied the fuel tank before putting away for winter.
Using a Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 in a HorizonCat, I cruise at just over 4.5 knots at 1000 watts and just under 4.0 at 500 watts. With the similar efficiencies, I assume you would get about the same with the 1003. This would give you 1/2 hour or 1 hour range respectively which might be OK if you just need power to get in and out of a marina or cruise close to home. Check the posting "An Electrified Horizon Cat" for complete information
I apologize to rbh1515 for hijacking his thread...well, at least diverting it a bit...but I have a question that I hope one of you can answer. Like Kickingbug, I bought a new (to me) sailboat, and it came with an almost new (still in warranty) Mercury 4hp, 4 stroke outboard. It's my first 4 stroke...it's also one heavy puppy. I think my 9.9 hp 2 stroke weighed less than this one! Maybe I've just gotten older and weaker?? Anyhow, I've read about all the restrictions on laying it down and carrying it so the oil doesn't run into the cylinder. When I look at the diagrams of what NOT do do, I have to wonder if tilting it up out of the water while sailing puts it in a bad attitude. It wouldn't make any sense, but hey, much of what is happening today doesn't make any sense to us old codgers. I'm asking just to be on the safe side! Input appreciated as always.
Tadpole
chalk up one vote for 2 strokes
I have 2 Nissan (tohatsu) 3 hp's that are the easiest to keep running and the lightest. Also, a 4hp Mariner in reserve.
I currently own qty (3) 4stks (2 hp, 70 hp and 140 Suzuki's). They have their attributes. But I have never had a hard-stop issue with the 2stks.....4stks, yes
Quote from: Tadpole on February 23, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
When I look at the diagrams of what NOT do do, I have to wonder if tilting it up out of the water while sailing puts it in a bad attitude. It wouldn't make any sense, but hey, much of what is happening today doesn't make any sense to us old codgers. I'm asking just to be on the safe side! Input appreciated as always.
Tadpole
My motor says to lay it down on the handle, shift leaver up for transportation. To be on the safe side when I tilt the motor up while sailing I rotate the engine so the handle is down, shift lever up. Not taking any chances.
Tom L.
You guys are convincing me more and more to go electric.
Lot of new info for me. I didn't know the battery was so light. That is a big plus. The down size is how long it will last. Sounds like maybe an hour. That would be plenty for most day sailors to power in and out of a slip. Not so good for cruising any distance. I also have never priced these motors and was surprised how expensive. Isn't there less expensive trolling motors.?Fishermen use them all the time. If the purpose is to just get in and out of a slip seems like any trolling motor would do.
Tom L.
I have a 40 # thrust minn-kota that I used on my 19 occasionally. I carried two 12v deep cycle batteries, one for out and one just in case. I bought it for less than 100 clams at a church sale. The batteries were approx. 100 each. Worked great for on the lake. I use it now on my grandson's Mutineer. With the battery strapped in, the motor can handle turning turtle. I use a 4HP 2cycle Yamaha on my 19 and a 5hp Nissan 4stroke on my Hunter 23.
TG
I have a 40lb trolling motor on my CP16 with a single 12v battery. Works fine for getting in and out of the harbor/dock. Not so great if trying to get to windward, but then I would be sailing... I also bought a solar panel to charge up the battery. I have only used the motor 2-3 times and never needed to recharge the battery so I am not really sure what my range/time on it is.
Had Honda and Tohatsu 4cycle obs for many years. The phobia about engine position is a little overblown. Just don't store it lying on the wrong side for an extended period of time. I stored both my engines in the vertical position over the winter. Although a winterizing shot of spray lube into the cylinders is a good thing, I usually didn't. I ran the carb dry and put them away. Never had a problem. Honda ran as well in 1992 as it did new in 1978. Tohatsu lived in storage shed in Central New York(lots of subzero days!) Always started on second or third pull on initial spring start-up. I LOVE 4 cycle obs(so does the environment as did my neighbors at the marina!).
Boating with Out Board Engines On The Transoms
There was nothing wrong with O/B 2 stroke engines ... O/B 4 strokes came along as a knee jerk reaction to stupid EPA pollution mandates.
Mandates that have and are becoming more strict.
Hence requiring more break-up of the fuel air fuel molecule for complete consumption from burning, which has proven to be more difficult without plugging up the fuel induction systems used in todays engines [soon catalytic converters may be required ... how is this possible?]
In Sturgeon Bay both of our BP [British Petroleum] stations sell ethanol free gas ... it's their premium grade.
--:> break-up of the fuel air fuel molecule <:--
O.K. How? Electronic Fuel Injection = high fuel delivery pressure and smaller orifices with higher velocities ... for a stinking fishing boat or sail boat?
Who gave these EPA people the power to legislate this nonsense?
Truth be told so little fuel is burned up in O/B's that it makes no difference which engine is used ... NatGeo states " ... not when one can stand in front of Niagara Falls and watch the water fall over the cliffs for 18 minutes and 17 seconds " ... that amount of water equals the quantity of gasoline burned every day combined for all fifty states.
Electrics motors are O.K. if you have a forklift battery weighing 3000 lb.
All be silent for another half year. No response appreciated.
skip.
No need to be silent. I appreciate your informative posts. I love my Nissan 8hp 2 stroke. It's a very simple engine that starts first time. I suppose that when she goes to outboard Heaven, I'll look into a 4 stroke...but maybe not. I kinda like the sound of a 2 stroke. Now if I could put an expansion chamber on it! :)
Bob23
Skip,
I agree, it seems like everything is being done to make outboards more unreliable. This ethanol thing is terrible. Down in Milwaukee we don't have any ethanol free gas. I know that up in Door County there is a lot of it available--lucky you!
There are no more new small 2 stoke outboards being made as far as I know. People say that they are dirtier, which they probably are, but sounds like most people that have 4 stroke engines run the fuel out of them at the end of the day, so, so much for fuel efficiency!
I know you don't like the electric engines such as Torqeedo, but I have done a lot of research on them, and the 1003 engine has a 10# battery that sits on top of the engine. You can bring the battery home to charge. I don't think I will be using much more than about 20-30% of the charge to motor out of the slip to the harbor and back to the slip, leaving at least 70% charge. Plus Torqeedo has a new cable that you can connect to your house battery when you are sailing to charge it back up a bit.
Yes, the Torqeedo is about twice the price of a comparable gas outboard, but there is no yearly maintenance, and don't have to buy gas. Plus, for a couple hundred $ I can buy a remote throttle that hooks to the engiine via a cable, and I never have to reach back over the transom except to tilt the engine up out of the water, and put it back into the water.
It is so light weight (about 20#) without the battery, that I can take it off the transom when I am done and put it down below.
In many ways the Torqeedo may be dirtier than a 2 cycle, since its electrical charge is derived from burning coal!!
I am looking at it mainly because it may be the most convenient.
Rob
I have both a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke outboards. I prefer the 4 stroke for quiet and ease of starting. As near as I can tell the gas mileage is about the same between them, but the 4 stroke is easier to pull while the 2 stroke requires more pulls to start and it is harder to pull. As to the pollution thing, I believe that the big problem is the exhaust from the two stroke. If you look at the water just behind the motor, you will probably see a rainbow slick on it from the exhaust of 2 stroke oil. Personally, I think this is significant.
Al
Every day in the U.S. all the crude lost in the Exxon Valdese tanker is dropped off the bottom of our motor cars.
O/B's ? Not significant. [consider rain washes the spill into the water] That's just ducky.
skip.
Legislation and pollution issues aside, I like 4 strokes because I hate mixing oil with gas. Just a matter of convenience. That being said one of my favorite cars I have owned was a 2 stroke Saab 93!
Batteries should never be discharged below 50% (shortens battery life considerably), lose power with age, and lose power with temperature. So you think you have an hour of power but do you? Have you ever noticed at golf courses they usually keep them plugged in when not in use - just sayin'. I would prefer 2 (two) 2.3 hp. Hondas with two separate fuel containers - I like back-ups! (And some oars too)
backups---interesting. i think maybe a cruise and carry 2.7 hp would fit in there somewhere. well i do have two
Quote from: atrometer on February 25, 2015, 02:31:15 PM
Batteries should never be discharged below 50% (shortens battery life considerably), lose power with age, and lose power with temperature. So you think you have an hour of power but do you? Have you ever noticed at golf courses they usually keep them plugged in when not in use - just sayin'. I would prefer 2 (two) 2.3 hp. Hondas with two separate fuel containers - I like back-ups! (And some oars too)
Never say never! ;)
Actually with the Torqeedo batteries that is not an issue. Its a Lithium battery. It actually beeps to let you know when it reaches 30%, again at 20% and again at 10%. These new batteries are very different. They are probably like the batteries in iPhones, iPads etc. In these they actually recommend that you occasionally bring the battery to zero and charge all the way back up.
I doubt they have Li batteries in the golf carts.
Rob
Rob,
"Its a Lithium battery. It actually beeps to let you know when it reaches 30%, again at 20% and again at 10%. These new batteries are very different. They are probably like the batteries in iPhones, iPads etc. "
True, those can be discharged further than lead acid. But those batteries do loose capacity just like any other over time and recharge cycles. Battery replacement will still be needed with a Torqueedo at some point.
Shawn
Shawn,
You are absolutely right. The battery degrades over time.....but not due to it being discharged over 50%.
Rob
I quickly looked at the Torqueedo web site a couple of years ago. Haven't looked at it since, they may have even newer stuff. Looked pretty cool to me albeit as I like to say, "Strikingly" expensive. I seem to remember they had a solar charge option that seemed very cool. I would say that if the Torqeedo fits your style of sailing, and you can afford it, why not. I would do it just for the silence. When my current Suzuki goes, I'll look into them again. I hate having my engine on, even to motor out or back in for 10 minutes. That said, I prefer 4 strokes for my boating, the lack of fumes is a plus. And mixing oil is a pain. Fossil fuel has many drawbacks. It's major plus is availability. I'm not about to get into the slectric/gas/nuclear debate though. Seems to be where all these discussions wind up.
Living in Florida now, I'm liking the looks of Solar. In Illinois I think, not so much. Any of you IL guys ever see the wind farm out on I-39, south of Rockford? Very impressive, as is their web site. I can't remember what it is but Google Illinois wind farm and it should come up. Also, Tesla has an interesting "home battery system" that Elon Musk talked about a couple of weeks ago. Electric companies are very afraid of that one. Hunter introduced a battery powered boat a couple of years of go. Don't know how many were built/sold or the technology used. Just a couple of days ago, one of the sailmakers in EU introduced a sail with solar panels on it. A lot of them. Sailinganarchy.com had the story. Wow.
Vectordirector
Reesail,
Thanks so much for the info! That's exactly what I needed to hear. I have researched the Torqeedo quite a bit, and it looks like it should be good, but I have still been a bit hesitant.
Rob
Honda + non-ethanol=no problems + plenty power
Math we can all understand!
Bob23
I am somewhat adverse to the four strokes, and have had problems with clogged fuel jets on the carburetor as well as fouled spark plugs.
Of course each time a failure occurred was when I needed them to get back into the dock. I learned to keep spare plugs and the plug wrench onboard, and have swapped it out on the water to get home.
They both also vibrated like a Harley, shaking the whole boat, and did not seem to generate the power they were supposed to. The 3.5 was new and the 6 was barely used and I cleaned the carb before using it for the first time.
I'm sorry, but lean running four strokes should not be fouling spark plugs, and I suspect they did due to the need to run the choke for an excessive period to help warm these lean engines up. Why, when Billy and I went for a sail with his Sailpro, it too fouled the plug and left us without a motor.
Nope, I'm sticking with 2 strokes. Our 1998 Yamaha 8hp 2 stroke twin hums along smoothly and is quiet compared to a single cylinder four stroke. 4 years of use with only draining the carb at the end of the season and zero problems with clogged jets. Ethanol gas, but I do put in a few additives and strain the gas with a filter than prevents water from passing through. A 100:1 gas:oil ratio is fairly benign from the pollution perspective given I might run 3-5 gallons of gas each season through it. And it fires right up and gives me no problems (except the pee stream tends to clog up, solved with a little weed-wacker line poking, and water jacket cover removal every two years. It's just junk from the lake and spiders that take shelter within.
Got this outboard in 2011, as new, never run for $1,000. Yep, 13 years sitting in a garage, intended as a kicker motor but never even started!
I would be a great candidate for the Torqueedo as I just don't need much range and would love to have the lighter weight, but until the price comes down a bit, I'm happy with the Yamaha 2 stroke. It should literally run forever given the amount of use, assuming decent care and quick attention should a problem occur.
Here is some data from the Torqeedo web site in regards to how long the battery lasts. About 12 years ago I had a Colgate 26 with a 4hp Yamaha, and I rarely ran it past 1/2 throttle. If I only use 1/2 throttle with the Torqeedo, I should be able to run it for quite some time! Rob
Travel 1003 with integrated battery (29.6 V / 18 Ah)
Tenders, dinghies, daysailers up to 1.5 tons
Speed in mph Range in nm (m) Run time in hours
Slow speed 2.3 approx. 20.0 (23) 10:30
Half throttle 3.4 approx. 10.5 (12.1) 3:30
Full throttle 5.7 approx. 2.8 (3.2) 0:35
"I'm sorry, but lean running four strokes should not be fouling spark plugs, and I suspect they did due to the need to run the choke for an excessive period to help warm these lean engines up. Why, when Billy and I went for a sail with his Sailpro, it too fouled the plug and left us without a motor. "
Something is wrong with that Sailpro. On mine I could push the choke in within seconds of it starting and it ran fine. The only time I ever fouled the plug on the Sailpro was when I put to much oil in the crankcase. It foamed and went up the PCV and fouled out the plug. That is running ethanol fuel, not running it dry and using the same three gallon tank of fuel (with Seafoam in it) all season long.
Shawn
So, I have skimmed comments, so take what I am saying with that in mind.
I love our Sailpro 6hp on our 19. The only issues starting it came because I wasnt thinking clearly and didnt do something like open a vent, pull choke properly, or had it in gear. All dumb issues, I caused due to it being new to me. BUT when the year came to a close, she run like a perfectly groomed machine, without issue. I follow procedure, she runs like a top.
I dump my part ethanol gas in my truck once every month and a half, and use some stabil in it to help keep the carb clean.
My mariner 2 stroke prior to this engine was a beast, ran well. it was oily...... I had to mix oil.... It had failed me several times out on the lake, especially one very bad time when it was very windy..... We were bringing the boat on the lake to a family get together at my uncles dock. as nice as that was, the channel was narrow, and the logs plentiful that remained (stumps) And after that I never trusted it again.
When I went to sell it I had changed fuel lines, new plug, new fuel, and she pulled and ran first pull..... had I not bought the sailpro and had it in my garage, I would have kept it. BUT when I went to show the buyer how well it ran, she wouldnt start, had a hell of a fit, leaked gas, and had air in the lines from the carb....... I was furious.... I took 50 off and sold it.
Honda's, well, the marina has 2 and I hate em. They never want to run correctly unless the mechanic takes and rebuilds the carbs, then they run for a day really well, then store for say a week and back to running like crap until one day we have the carb rebuilt.
Our 40hp fuel injected however runs great. FUEL INJECTION had better run great. The 40hp carb motor it replaced, also made by honda, every year and a half needed a plethora of new parts, including a new intake, and atleast one new carb. It also had lower unit corrosion like we had never seen before.... HORRIBLE. The area in front of the prop got so bad, it cracked all the way around it and broke, which that coupled with the intake carb issues was the last straw.
We are not hard on engines, and also constantly have new gas running through them... so the honda are a dissapointment unless it was fuel injected.
Suzuki....... now that was a odd duck for us...... It made its own oil somehow..... Even a Suzuki engine rep couldnt figure out what the hell was happening.... After a new block, lower unit, top end, it still made its own oil....... I have no explanation, and oddly, neither did suzuki.
Yamaha, which we had as our first engine long ago on that boat was a hell of a engine, 60hp, I think..... I do know it ran the best. we should have never gotten rid of it. it would probably still be running today if we still had it.
Sailpro is the bomb diggity...... I love that engine.
Mac
Wow, lot of opinions many of them conflicting.
I've had five outboard motors as sail aux. Evinrude 6hp 2 stroke; Johnson 9.9 hp 2 stroke; Johnson 4hp 2 stroke; Suzuki 9.9 hp 4 stroke; Nissan Sailpro 6 hp 4 stroke. The 2 stroke outboards were more problematic for me than the four strokes. Of the three, the oldest and most used Evinrude was the best of the lot. The other two stranded me on a number of occasions. The four stroke motors have never been a problem, have not stranded me and have run smoothly since day one. The Sailpro so far has been the best of my motors however it is only had two years of use. You do have to get comfortable with the slightly higher vibration level of a single cylinder motor.
When talking bigger, multicylinder, fuel injected motors the 4 strokes really shine. Much smoother and more quiet, less fumes, and far more efficient. My BIL has a Yamaha 225 on a 22 foot bay boat that is a dream.
rbh1515
I'm a big Torqeedo fan but think their numbers are a bit optimistic except at full power for a Horizon Cat. At the 1000 w full throttle for the 1003, my data shows a speed of 5.4 mph vs. their 5.7 which is essentially equivalent although the efficiency on the Cruise 4.0 is 56% vs 48% for the 1003. The 29.6v, 18 AH battery gives 533 whr. Their full throttle (1000 w) data shows 35 min run time which implies 583 whr. Using 550 whr as capacity, half throttle run time of 3.5 hours implies 157 w input. I don't have data at that low a power but extrapolating the curve down from 250 w, you would get 2.5 mph vs their 3.4 mph. Their slow speed calculates to 52 w input which is too far below my data to speculate.
If you're serious about the 1003, I'll run some speed trials at those wattages.
Electric power is a joy. Need to run into the wind or caught "in stays", just drop your hand to the throttle and off you go. No mess, no smells - the cabin and bilge still smell like they just came out of the wood shop after a year and a half.
cdflan,
Great info! I am definitely getting the 1003 to hang off the back. It will be interesting to see how it performs, but since I just daysail and only need to get in and out from the dock, it should be fine. Looks like the 4.0 has a different prop than the 1003. I looked at the 4.0, but the cost with batteries shoots way up!
Rob
All of the comments here are reinforcing my doubts about sailing with an engine as a necessary part of the plan. I will admit that I am terrible with mechanical equipment, including cars. Since I got my CP 16, I have been worried about some kind of catastrophic failure that I don't have a backup plan for. I am not confident about being able to row such a heavy boat for very far or to even usable effect at short distances. Because of that I have been working to learn to sail off the dock and back to it without mechanical assistance. So far I have found that it is more convenient to leave the motor out of the water unless the wind is totally against me.
I have a new Yamaha 2.5 horse four stroke that I like very much. I don't baby it, and it hasn't let me down yet. I don't want to come to rely on it though. Someday it probably will let me down and I will need to make other arrangements. Maybe a big ole yuloh or something like that.
Al
Au contraire on the rowing. I think it'd be pretty easy to row a Compac 16. Remember, practically the only reason you'd be rowing is if there was no wind. Of course, rowing into an opposing tide might be a pain. But in calm, non-tidal water it can and has been done.
But, that being said, I like my outboard. But I sail in tidal conditions which sometimes make it necessary to motor home in narrow channels
into opposing tide and wind.
But I'm with you in using the motor minimally. I also sail off and back onto my mooring, sometimes not using the motor for a month at a time. Occasionally, I'll just go out an motor around to keep the motor in use.
Bob23
I had the same thoughts and then I realized" its a sailboat".............................back up plan put sails back up.............nies
The use of a trolling motor was discussed in 2013 here: http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6805.15 (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6805.15)
If you look at my post on the last page, you'll see that using a single sculling oar (european version of a yuloh) is quite practical on quite large boats even in strong tideways...if the tide is against you, you anchor until it is not - what's the hurry, you're in a sailboat. "Unless I were in a major tideway/current or in a narrow channel, I wouldn't worry too much about size of motor as you could be using the sails in anything other than a flat calm anyway. The French are masters of this and, when I learned to sail in the English Channel, we were always amazed at how many French boats would arrive on the our side with no motors at all in 20 to 30 foot boats and the only means of auxilliary propulsion being a single sculling oar."
I've been happy with a simple trolling motor. Quiet, light, essentially silent, low installed cost (circa $250 including deep-cycle battery) and low running cost and no flammable fuel (gas or propane) introduced to the boat.
Unfortunately many marinas prohibit sailing in or out of a slip. I know a guy who was banned from his marina because of a mishap trying to get into a slip under sail. I used to do it routinely when I had a boat on the Elk River in MD but only when the wind was blowing out of the slip(most of the time). NEVER when the wind was astern when docking. That marina also had a large fairway which had plenty of room to maneuver. As to sculling, Lin & Larry Pardey sailed all over the world in their engineless cutter Seraffyn with only a sculling oar for power. They are very effective as Jon says.
i have had a number of outboards both on sailboats and fishing boats and have had little or no trouble out of any of them---all two strokes. after buying the catalina last spring im hoping that the four stroke merc works out alright----so far so good. just to keep in practice though i have come into the dock using just sail. i have tried jib alone and main alone----jib works better. having roller furling it makes it easy to depower. it does however require good timing. i would encourage everyone to practice docking under sail. one day that might be your only option
You could always take a page out of the famous sailing couple, Lin and Larry Pardey, and go engine-less.
Then again, who has the time to do that. I find that when I am cruising there are just times that I have to run the engine to get somewhere. I don't want to be out in the Chesapeake Bay at night near ships channels or running the engine through crab floats (damn things are hard to see at night). Also, the chances go way up if you are out past 5pm in the summer of hitting violent storms.
Just so! One of the best things I did was to opt for the diesel on Kailani. Was out today and ran some speed/RPM tests. Wide open(4000 rpm) 6-6.5 KNOTS. 2800 rpm 4.9-5 knots. 2200 rpm 4-4.5 knots. All SOG by gps measured over different headings to compensate for current/wind variables. At 2200 rpm the engine is smooth and the noise is minimal. Like the option to make tracks(wakes?) when needed. Electric start means just reaching down and turning the key. I don't need drama at my age!
I like the idea of the small diesel in a 23 but it wouldn't make $ense to install one on my older boat. I'd rather have the storage room. I think Shawn devised a sculling oar for his 23 when he had it. Maybe he'll share something about it.
Heave: It's easy to cross oceans without a motor and I like Lin and Larry's simple approach to sailing. I don't think they even have electric nav lights.
Bob23
Craig,
What diesel is in the Horizon cat? I guess the new diesel engines spin a lot faster than the old school diesels. The Volvo in my Sabre is redlined at 2600 RPM. I cruise at 1600 at about 4 knots.
Shawn
Hi Bob,
After all the cramps/pains/insanity trying to gain access to service the Volvo in my Sabre I'd be terrified of trying to do the same thing in a 23. It really must be shoehorned into the space above the bilge. Unless the side panels come out (I think the are supports for the cockpit floor) that must be no fun at all.
For example to adjust the packing gland on the Sabre I have to climb into the cockpit seat locker, which is enormous compared to the 23, and remove an access panel. But it is still a contortionist trick to get at the packing gland.
An outboard is sooo much easier to work on, and *dramatically* cheaper. When I was pricing out potential replacement diesels the *cheap* ones were around 9k. Without installation.
I didn't do a sculling oar, I recall reading about that here but it wasn't something I did.
Shawn
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6705.0
Shawn,
Too bad none of the photos in the old thread show up. Would liked to have seen them since I'm quite interested in the sculling of small boats.
capt_nemo
The diesel in Kailani is a 2cyl. 14 hp Yanmar. Plenty of power, relatively smooth and quiet. Side panels do come off but fit is tight. Upside is that is easily trailed and can be serviced on the hard. Life is naught but a series of choices and compromises!
I think the diesel would be nice on the Horizon, but I wanted very low maintenance, and I don't cruise. I will also have no thru hulls on my boat!! For me simple is better.
Rob
Craig
What model engine do you have in Kailani?
Its a 2YM15. Nice little engine. HCs originally had a Westerbeke I believe. As a point of interest the hose can be disconnected from the cooling intake seacock without water flooding in because the top of the fitting is above the waterline. I know this because I had to remove a mangrove pod that had by freak circumstance found its way into the intake! Actually a good thing( the above waterline thing not the mangrove pod!).
Thanks. Was trying to match performance curves to the ones I used to specify electric power needed. Had used data from the 2GM20F which is slightly more power. Gerry had said the boat cruises at 5kt with engine between 2300 and 2500 rpm. I cruise at 5 kt with about 1350 watt input to the electric drive which indicates that the electric motor/prop is more efficient than the diesel inboard drive.
I really like the electric drive! Had the Elco been an option when we bought Kailani I probably would have gone with it. Still, if I want to just motor all day I can do that for many hours with no anxiety and for "peanuts". I will swallow the anchor long before the diesel becomes an issue!
I think electric motors are fine for short distances. Fishermen use trolling motors all the time, with dual batteries and gas engines to charge these batteries. But if you are cruising and you need additional power, or worse yet, you run out before you can get to a location to recharge the battery, you could be stuck. Granted you can have multiple batteries, add solar panles, wind or water generators, but all this stuff cost a lot of money. Wiring is vulnerable to failure, particularly in a salt water environment. Until technology advances to a battery system that will remain charged via solar or internal charging system, to me there is no substitute for a clean burning 4-stroke motor. They are reliable, affordable and economical. Carrying extra fuel is not a problem either. If the wind is blowing we're sailing, if the wind dies down, we can motor. If you're in the ICW on your cruising route, you're likely to be motoring more than sailing. And although it might be wonderful to show your sailing skills docking, most of us are going to use our motors to dock safely. We have a CP16 with a Honda 2hp. Having just purchased this boat, I'm not sure we won't upgrade to a larger motor; seems most owners use a 3.5 to 4hp, certainly not electric for this application. We hope to do some longer distance camp/cruising, much of it in the ICW. I hope these expensive electric motors work out for anyone using them.
Had the Elco been an option when we bought Kailani I probably would have gone with it.
I've often thought that the ideal situation for the 23 on an OEM basis would be to build a battery compartment beneath the sole and remove the ballast that is made up from the weight of the batteries, using an Elco or equivalent electric inboard. That was before I was informed that the Elco system was an $18,000 option. :) But as batteries improve, and volume on electric systems increase, cost could come down. Can you imagine running as silent while motoring as you do while sailing with the weight perfectly balanced for trim.
I can imagine that. But I'd need a very extended range to consider electric power. And being somewhat of a gearhead, I like the sound of internal combustion engines. If you listen closely, you can hear music! Of course my Nissan 8 hp 2 stroke doesn't sing the same tune as a Porsche 917, but it's music none the less! And let's not forget the diesel symphonies! In C minor, of course.
Bob23
I can get about 35 NM at 4.5 KT with a full charge. That's some 8 hours which is about all my bottom can take even with no wind. And Com-Pac had suggested putting one of my four batteries in the keel forward of the centerboard which worked out great.
This thread goes to show, there really is not one-size fits all solution to motor power for sailboats.
Too many "it depends".
I'm on a small lake so investing in an inboard diesel would be silly and not cost effective. Same with electric inboard. But, an electric outboard would be perfect.
When they come down in cost I'll consider them, but in the meantime I'm perfectly happy with the gas outboard, and earning 7%+ on the money that would be otherwise spent on a Torqeedo.
i agree on the electrics that they would fit my sailing situation pretty well. the cost however is a killer. given a few years it may be an option.but for now the 4 horse merc will have to do. and if that fails maybe ill put one my old noisy, smoky cruise and carry 2.7 hp antiques on the transom. those motors are legend at the clr.